There is a radar on 052C/D and all the 054A ships that does that. It’s SR-64. I tend do go with the theory of wanting “a long-range, ABM-capable AESA” especially now that the new VLS supposed to be able to launch ABM.

And going forward to some point in the not so distant future, 052D will most likely be able to get targeting info from naval aerial assets.

Here’s some interesting news from Reuters:

China starts ‘combat ready’ patrols in disputed waters

Its been a long time coming but China finally seems ready to flash a bit of military muscle over the Spratleys. Vietnam don’t look to be doing too much backing down either.

They are sending cutters over there to do patrols. These aren’t exactly military grade ships. They are not even equipped with anything outside of machine guns.

What is this about Vietnam not backing down? Vietnam’s best course of action is to complain to the world that it’s been bullied by the big bad Chinese. It certainly has nowhere near the military power to pose challenge to PLAN SSF.

Any more pictures of this Type-054B firgate? I couldn’t find similar pictures of this 054B with search. Or is it a different class – a destroyer?

This looks more meaner than the 054A in which the fore deck is filled with the MG & AD missile cells.

there really is no point keep speculating on this. When it comes out, you will see what it looks like. There is enough going on in the shipyards, that people shouldn’t have to fantasize about new magical systems.

btw, it looks like the 5th 054A from HD shipyard is on sea trials and the 6th one just got launched. The 7th 054A from HP sipyard is almost ready to be launched.

Well hasn’t China been supposedly working on a replacement for the RD-93? Given how long that has been going on, the massive (compared to Ukraine) resources they can throw at it, and the indigenous factor, I would be pretty shocked if they 1.) Would be interested in a Ukranian JF-17 solution or 2.) Would not be able to make a similar product in a faster time frame.

I think the one they are working with Ukrainians would be more advanced than the WS-13. Also, the Chinese engine industry is still very behind as seen by all of the problems in WS-10A production. WS-13 is not going to receive the same amount of funding, because PLAAF is not dependent on it. So, it might take another 3 years before we see it being mass produced.

HQ-9 is already quite capable and in service with PLA and PLAN. All of the performance data shows that it is comparable PMU1 at least. There is certainly no reason for China to clone S-300, since they already have something as good. They just need to do some upgrades on it to make it better. There are certainly many things about PMU2 that I’m sure they would find useful to gather. Although since they already have the system in service, it begs the question what kind of additional data they are looking for. One possibility is that they are trying to modify the existing S-300 in service to make them more compatible with other Chinese systems. You have to believe that there are more stories behind this.

[QUOTE=Musashi;1787267]You admit that there’s no transparency in the budget for the aircraft carrier yet your assumptions are based on the false premice that you know exactly what is spent on defence by China every year. The whole point is that you don’t! China’s official budget is a piece of propaganda, as the SIPRI and RAND research shows. And you don’t know how defence spending is allocated either.
[/qoute]
We don’t know exactly how much money they spend on each project, although there is a lot of sources in Chinese that gives rough estimates, but we do know the full budget. China’s budget is available for everyone to see. They only take in so much money. And they have to issue bonds if they don’t have money. It’s not like there is a large mysterious pool of money it can draw from.

Again, if you don’t need something it’s a waste to keep spending money on it. What does China need all those ships for?

so your suggestions is for every third world country to abandon any semblance of defense and just allow anyone to come in? lol

We have US, Japan, India, Taiwan and several other nations all thinking of China as their largest or second largest threat. I’d think that would be keeping a lot of PLA officers awake at night.

So what if they’re a 4th generation fighter? It’s a meaningless term. Sure, they’re more advanced than a J-8, but simply saying it’s 4th gen doesn’t mean it’s better value for money than, I don’t know a F/A-18E.

getting a little feisty and annoyed right now, aren’t you? I like how exasperated you are sounding. The original premise was that if PLAN finds a $45 million to be a high price tag for naval fighter, then it is likely to be very frugal. I did not compare its ability to any aircraft. You did that.

They bought Varyag over a decade ago. Clearly they purchased it when submarines were still a priority. They did it because they wanted it, not because there as a “need”.

It was $20 million. Chump change. They’ve bought used aircraft carriers before to study the design. There is certainly nothing wrong with studying design so you can later produce your own.

So you’re telling me that despite the propaganda, China isn’t socialist and believes in capitalism? Ironic. The country might be increasingly prosperous but the wealth is concentrated in the hands of a minority. You could at least recognise that China’s growth is based significantly on workers having few rights and being unable to vote in a government that will spend more money on them.

In America, we have numerous Republican state governors taking away collective bargaining rights from public unions. And guess what, I applaud them for it. Workers have a choice to work where they are or go else where to go work. That’s how free market works. And in China, people are allowed to change to whatever job they want to. I have relatives, I know what I am talking about here. And ordinary people’s lives have improved so much because of this system. Keep raising minimum wage to unsustainable levels will just make businesses uncompetitive. But you sound like a complete socialist, so you don’t understand these basic concepts of capitalism.

It’s more than 2%, though I’m not suggesting it’s a crippling amount of money in the slightest.

It’s around 1.4 to 1.5% unless you have a different figure to go by. Now the so called 2 to 3 times propoganda by DoD was used to get larger budget. It was done at a time when China was importing a lot of weapons (which was not on the defense budget) and also factored in stuff like PAP and I don’t know what else. You can’t get all you need to know by looking at China’s budget. It has a section of national defense and a section for internal security. It’s not China’s fault that a good number of Western journalists are too lazy to actually go in and do a little original Chinese language research on the matter.

Why exactly would they do that?

let’s see, territorial disputes, energy shortages, Taiwan scenario? You see to harbor a lot of hatred for China. Maybe you can tell me why you hate the country so much.

I think you’re failing to spot sarcasm when it comes and slaps you across the face. But I do actually care about other people even if they’re from a different country. And whilst I don’t object to China having an aircraft carrier, I think it’s incredibly arrogant to make jingoistic comments about how China is “rich” enough to afford carriers when it still doesn’t give a crap about the poorest people in its society.

It does. China has raised more people out of poverty in the past 30 years than anyone else in the history. Everyone knows that. Ask the World Bank and they will tell you that. What more can it do?

What makes me very sad is that so many Chinese people are ecstatic about a system that ensures they and/or their relatives do well, or indeed that they see China doing things that they believe are important, but they couldn’t care less that their own countrymen and women suffer as a result of that system. Or they’re so impossibly isolated from the real world that they think China is run so perfectly that the peasants and urban workers couldn’t have it better, so they should be grateful.

Have you been to the country and realized how much better life is for Chinese people? And look at Japan, it has 200+% national debts and the country is mired in its 2nd lost decade. Look at UK, the country is completely broke and people are rioting on the streets. Look at US, there is too much public and private sector debt. We are heading down a lost decade here in America because of those idiots in Washington. China has a lot of problems, but at least it’s heading in a better direction.

1. If people in India don’t like aircraft carriers, they can vote in a pacifist party to change spending priorities. Chinese people can’t do that, bar a revolution.

in a recent poll, 90+% of Chinese people supported aircraft carriers. And if you talk to people in China, having an aircraft carrier as prestige is very important.

2. This is a thread about China, not India. If you or someone else wants to jump in to a thread about the Indian military and complain that India can’t afford something, I won’t object.

you kept on saying that China shouldn’t spend money on aircraft carriers because it has a lot of poor people. I’m saying that shouldn’t you be saying the same about another country who has more aircraft carriers and lower per capita GBP?

Seriously, China should build carriers because of that? What, does it have a small penis or something?

face is very important in Asian culture, do you not know that? And for the latter part of your country. You seem intent on slamming China down. Do you have that problem of small …. that you need to make China sound inferior?

So build LPHs instead of carriers.

you seem to have problem with them building any kind of ships or even having a navy from what you’ve been talking about so far. Why don’t you tell me then. What do you think is an appropriate size navy for a country China’s size and coastline?

And how many carriers is China going to have to build to do that? And where are they going to be based? And what’s China going to do if airpower won’t solve the problem?

From who? China has no real enemies, in as far that there are countries out there who want to attack it or seriously harm it. Is Iran going to choke off Chinese oil imports? Hell no!

This is about having raw power and being able to say “DO WHAT I SAY!” if China feels like it. For example, carriers would be very useful in forcing SE Asian states to recognise China’s control of the South China Sea.

China has no real enemies? Have you read the white paper and what ministry of defense from US, Japan, India and even Australia (not sure why, since they are completely economically dependent on China) have said about China? If there is a major border dispute between India and China, all of China’s energy needs are at the mercy of Indian navy.

And finally, is it wrong for China to seek for regional leadership? If Russia seeks for regional leadership in former Soviet republic, if US wants to maintain its world leadership and if India seeks for regional leadership in South Asia. What’s wrong with China seeking for leadership in South East Asia? And do you think China can achieve regional leadership by pure economic power?

btw, how did this turn into ASBM?

Yeah, but China just threw money at getting Varyag ready. It’s likely no one will ever know how much thanks to the lack of transparency.

I think it is not jealousy but just the nature of the Chinese political system. It is a lot easier for an authoritarian regime like the one that exists in Beijing to just throw money and resources at a project like this and not be bothered with costs or overruns than it would be for a democratic government like the one in India which has to be more accountable to its people and can’t just throw money at every problem they have to face.

btw, PLAN is extremely cheap.

It’s hard to believe because they are building so many new ships, but the efficient local shipbuilding sector + domestic subsystems result in a lot of ships built cheaply in asembly style. They are still refitting the oldest ships like Jianghu and Luda rather than decomissioning them, because they don’t like wasting anything. I can go on and on about PLAN’s frugality, but I think you get my point.

Air wing isn’t going to be that expensive either, although the upfront development cost of J-15 would have to be lowered by a large enough production run. When SAC told PLAN that each J-15 would cost 300 million RMB (about $45-$50 million), they had a hard time even accepting that cost. When you think about it, that’s not expensive at all for a 4th generation naval fighter jet.

If you look at PLAN’s development, they could’ve obtained a carrier a long time ago, but did not do so. At this point, the country has gotten rich enough that it can afford to build a couple of carrier groups without been a burden on the economy. Since Deng came to power, China’s military spending has generally been very responsible. Even facing the Soviet encirclement in the 80s, the Chinese administration cut back on military spending for many years. If you look at America, Pentagon and defense lobbyist are screaming even though the current deficit reduction plan only calls for cuts that are not real cuts (but rather reduction in projected increases). You got to look at facts rather than perceptions here.

One is the original article and the other is a gross violation and outright theft of intellectual property rights.

Here we go again, they have right to build 200 under license production in the original agreement. They already paid the amount in full. Where is theft of IP if they paid for it? Of course, once they get past 200 and still don’t pay for the additional airframes, I’d agree that’s a huge problem.

WRT 2) huitong’s site seems to imply 700kg was lost due to use of composites alone?

PKoschei, where’d you get the number for J-11B’s empty weight from?

not sure if we will know the exact weight loss. My guess weight loss comes from use of composites + savings from lighter radar and using avionics.

J-11B does seem to have moved on to WS-10A now, although I think there are still plenty of issues with it. They are going to have to suck it up and go through the pain, because the Russians are not going to be sending them anymore AL-31F for J-11Bs.

The recent word is that it performed really well again MKKs in a major PLAAF exercise, but that’s not really that shocking. The entire line of Chinese flankers is still a work in progress.