tphuangChina got Bei Dou GPS or possible use Russia GLONASS ???
I posted before actually, China actually got a copy of JDAM from 1999 Kosovo bombing, but realistically, this system won’t be affective until Beidou 2 is up.
tphuangDo we know what engine the J-8F’s are equipped with?
I think they should be equipped with Kunlun (WP-14) turbojet engines. Someone can correct me on this.
Anyhow, this is the latest on J-10’s EW suite from PLA’s newspaper.
http://jczs.news.sina.com.cn/p/2006-10-02/0928402309.html
中国新型战机首次亮相对抗复杂电磁袭扰(组图)
本报讯易晓阳、记者谭洁报道：金秋戈壁，万籁俱寂。9月底，空军某训练基地复杂电磁环境下对抗演练在这里展开。飞行员刘巍驾驶某新型战机刚起飞，空地通讯因受电磁干扰突然中断，机载报警器上数排警示灯同时闪亮。有着10多年驾龄的刘巍，第一次遇到这样复杂的电磁干扰环境，立刻有了实战的感觉。空地立体互动，全程实施袭扰，电子对抗激烈。某新型战机首次亮相演练场，参演部
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买房答疑 城市生活新主张队与空地目标进行大规模电磁对抗，一批电磁干扰环境下的新战法通过检验……诸多事实表明，该基地训练手段实现了由一般条件向复杂电磁干扰环境的转变。
“没有逼真的战场环境，很难获取实战的经验。”在战场数据不断刷新的大屏幕前，基地王司令员告诉记者，为设置复杂逼真的战场环境，基地在空军有关部门支持下，构建了
信息化训练平台，建起了电子战训练场，以提高部队在强电磁袭扰下的作战能力。记者在演练现场看到，虽没有硝烟弥漫，没有炮声隆隆，但静谧的“无形战场”却进行着更为复杂和激烈的电磁干扰与反干扰——空中战机与地面对抗设施相结合，各种有源和无源电子发射装备相结合，雷达干扰与通信干扰相结合……模拟“敌”复杂电磁干扰状态下的防空体系，使战斗更加激烈和精彩。电磁在空地间密集穿梭，荧屏上杀机四伏。地面防空兵、雷达兵和通信兵等部队正在进行激烈的空地互动电子对抗，监测评估系统对空地电磁环境实时监控，并进行量化分析和评判胜负。
“信息化的训练手段使战斗力的生成模式发生巨变，仅电子战训练场就可为飞行员提供相当于20次以上的实战经验。”据空军军训部门有关专家介绍，此次演练运用信息化手段整合训练资源，提升了训练质量和效益，催生了一批新训法、战法，推进了训练手段向更高层次发展。
相关链接
电子战训练场
电子战是继陆战、空战、海战之后的第四维战场。电子战训练场是信息化条件下军事训练的一个重要平台，为部队提供真实的训练环境，进行逼真的对抗训练；使部队能迅速有效地收集、分析和评估训练效果，提高训练效益。
目前，世界各国都十分重视电子战训练场建设，美、英、法、俄等大国加大对电子战训练场的投入，不断改进训练手段。一些发展中国家也在努力增强本国的电子战实力，在加速研制、改进和完善电子战装备和手段的同时，加紧建立电子战训练场，对部队进行严格的电子战训练。
tphuangI can see your point, but let’s take a look at some facts.
1. Back in 2004, PAF high command stated in an interview with AFM that J-10 is available to PAF and that a team would be sent to China to evaluate this fighter.
2. President Musharraf became the first foreign leader to inspect J-10.
3. Back in Apr 2006, Pak cabinet authorised PAF to start negotiations for the purchase of 36 J-10.
4. Around Aug 2004, we learnt from a PA general that negotiations for J-10 purchase are underway.
5. In his latest interview PAF chief notes 150 JF-17 Thunders and 36 F-10A aircraft will also be joining PAF, and more F-10s can be expected. and that New as well as upgraded F-16s, F-10A and JF-17 Thunders are equipped with data links.. Please notice the lack of ambiguity in these statements. He seems to categorical in saying that 36 J-10 will be joining PAF and that more might join.
Having said all this, unless it is a part of some massive disinformation plan to pressurise US regarding F-16 sale or something of the sort, i suspect chinese hierarchy has already approved the sale of J-10 to Pakistan, be it with Russian or chinese engine. From what we know, a russian engine would equip JF-17. If so, what sort of objections are russian likely to raise when it comes to AL-31 in J-10?
there is the issue of time frame here. Would china allow J-10 to be exported eventually? yes, but that’s only when it has enough J-10s to protect its own borders against the likes of F-15s, F-16, F-18s and su-30s. I don’t believe China would export any J-10s using AL-31.
For the first time, im beggining to suspect that this may be a reference to export version of J-11 in future. ACM referred to J-10 as F-10A, and it is reasonable to assume that twin seater version is more than likely to be named F-10B just like F-16A/B. Any further export upgrades of this machine are likely to be designated F-10C/D etc just like PAF operated F-7M/PG etc. FC-1 is the export designation for this fighter, and J-11 if ever exported may be designated a different name such as FC-20…unless of course PAF has knowledge of some secret chinese developments.
not sure about this, but one of the big shrimps on Chinese forums mentionned that PAF approached China for J-11B (which is something else China is not exporting for various reasons)
tphuangYou may well know more about J10 production speed than me – Any sources would be interesting – but I would be surprised if China could not cope with 36+ aircraft for export to Pakistan over next 2-4 years.
As for China not actively looking to export the type – fine – but as I said before if Pakistan wants it – which it clearly does – it will get it – and China will accomodate its requirements. The two nations track record in co-operation is ample proof of this.
amongst other things, a big issue is engine here. The production of J-10 is limited to the # of engines they have. Whether it is WS-10A or AL-31FN. For PAF, I’d assume that the engine would have to be WS-10A. And I’m sure producing 36 J-10 in 2-4 years is not a problem, but the issue is whether or not plaaf would allow CAC to produce them for PAF when it could be producing J-10s for itself. As for what F-20 or any designation of J-10 means in PAF, let’s wait for more details to come out first.
tphuangGiven Pakistan’s close defence relationship with China – if it wants J10’s it is likely to get them. The PAF has clearly stated that it has opened negotiations for J10’s – how quickly they will want them will depend on how the F-16 deal progresses. As for all reports of this only coming from the Pakistan side – this is nothing new and certainly not surprising. Pakistan is generaly more open about its dealings than China — I don’t think anyone would expect China to make an official anouncement that it was engaged in negotiations with Pakistan to sell J10’s – that would be a huge departure from the norm.
let me correct you here, if PAF wants J-10, it will EVENTUALLY get them. CAC can’t even produce it fast enough to supply plaaf. Even PLANAF can get a piece of J-10, how many J-10s do you think will be available for export in the next few years? Unlike JF-17, China is currently not actively looking to export this thing.
tphuangCurrent J-10 is primarily for A2A role, and will need years to become a fully multirole machine in F-16 blk 50/52 category. PAF most likely would purchase J-10 at some point in future, but not in near future.
China is not just going to shove J-10s at PAF. Seems like all of the J-10 reports for PAF has come from the Pakistani sides. If I were you, I would not be talking about J-10 as an afterthought.
tphuangJ10’s IFR is not retractable. It’s removable. In other words, it can be installed easily if needed, just like J8IID and F.
not sure where you got that assessment from. If it is just because J-8D has a non-retractable one, then it’s no reason to think that J-10 don’t have a retractable one. Anyhow, according to a big shrimp on Chinese forum, J-10’s IFT is retractable. Whether you choose to believe it or not, that’s your issue.
tphuangLike what u say then why J-8IID is fitted with IFR probe? Taiwan is not the sole reason for all PLA military doctrine to formulate! They are other interest as well…
J-10 and FC-1 are considered new,not fitting them with IFR probe is understandable but why JH-7A not fitted,since it is considered a mature plane and applying on it is pratical. I know decision to fit J-8IID is to allow it to project its combat radius to Spratly island.JH-7A is considered a naval strike platform. Sending it to protect Spratly island is a very good choice. Giving it IFR probe will probably allow it to project its strike capabilites even beyond all ASEAN shore!
you can’t compare the two. JH-7A has far longer range than J-8II carrying greater ordinance. I believe I read that J-10 has a retractable IFR system.
tphuangJH-7A has a operationg radius of 1650 km with payload of 6500 kg, seems to be enough for all of the tasks that it needs to do.
tphuangThat’s only a matter of time now. Chinese designed CPUs are manufacturing at 90nm level, though performance is still modest at 1Ghz. This kind of CPUs are the ones you could expect for embedded or portable applications.
Chinese cars have indeed begun export to the US thanks to Malcolm Bricklin. Right now just about every car in China is made, in China. Chinese car parts are now exported all over the world and as well as CKDs.
A Taiwanese conglomerate, Nanya, which has strong links with the mainland government (call it a buddy relationship) and the Kuomintang, is the number one producer of plastics and composites in the world.
Haier is now the world’s largest maker of dishwaters and gunning now on other areas like air conditioners.
China-Taiwan almost has 100% of motherboard production as well as graphic card production. If you check Silicon Valley, it’s a damn near China town. Many silicon companies like nVidia, ATI, SiS, VIA are founded by Chinese and make their products in China and Taiwan. Other companies like Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, Abit also span what the industry calls the “Triangle” between Taiwan, Chinese emirates at Silicon Valley and China.
I remembered once someone said China overtaking Japan in foreign surplus would not take anytime soon. That time quickly came and went.
they say the 1 GHz chips are equivalent in performance to the Pentium 4 2 GHz chips. Keep in mind, a AMD athalon 2.2 GHz chip is equivalent to Pentium 4 3.5 GHz chip. You can’t always use bus speed to measure the performance.
tphuangI agree with SOC. For years, PLAAF has been saying J10 is too expensive, we need a cheap light fighter. But have a look at what they’ve been doing: extending J7,J8 and Q5’s life and concentrating on J10/J11.
If FC1 or J7MF were ready 5 years ago, the situation could’ve been different. But the chance is dripping away.
Also, Had Su30 lived up to the promises, we shouldn’t see Jh7’s introduction into PLAAF and it would simplify the migration path to the future. Now the coming twin seater J11 will make it even more awkward for PLAAF and the government.
J-10 being expensive is totally laughable. It’s far cheaper than anything else in the market of similar quality. The question if you are plaaf is this: would you rather have 10 J-10s or 20 JF-17s. I think most people would pick the former. Of course, there could be places where JF-17 serves some purpose like replacing really remote and insignificant regiments. In general, I see J-10 to be cheap enough to do mass replacement. I’m not aware of any twin seater J-11 coming out. I’m sure it’s in development, but China has plenty of projects in development.
As for L-15, it obviously have uses that JF-17 could never claim to, so its place in plaaf is very secure.
tphuangThe J-10 50150 was quite interesting when it first appeared late 2004. At first we thought the numbers were ps’ed because it was the same as a transport group. At that time no one knew that the PLAAF had decided to modify its numbering system.
It used to be that the first and fourth numbers – 1 = division number. But if the division number is less than 10, it is the first and fourth numbers – 11 = division number. Thus DRUDU , as in D for division number, R for regiment number and U for unit number.
Hence 2nd division was always 13 but the 44th division was actually 45. Hence why the 44th Division J-10s had 4RX5X numbers, XX being unit serial number and R being regiment number.
But in 2005, it was clear that the PLAAF was changed its numbering system so that DD – 11 = divisional number is now used in all divisions. So the 44th Division is actually 5XX5X not 4XX5X.
I studied the numbers for a while. All letters in the plane are all unique, which means they’re not copied and pasted from a single source. They are also angled in relation to the 3D view of the plane. Even better, the corners of the letters in the tail actually curves in consistent to the upper surface of the tail root. What’s even more interesting is that the front digit showed paint smearing to indicate the first number was actually physically painted over the original number.
The number of the J-10 would have been originally 40150, with the 4 painted over to become 50150. As of 2004, all letters are still painted in blue, so this means this J-10 is about the same vintage as photos of other 44th Division J-10s like 41251 and 41252. By 2005, the lettering has been changed to orange.
As for the JH-7As, 2XX9X could have been 28th Division in the old system but 18th Division in the new system. Now this is confusing since the 28th Division actually has its own regiment of JH-7As, although it was concluded first that 2XX9X were 28th Division, when in truth, it was 18th Division.
The 28th Division had its own JH-7As when photos of planes bearing the number 3XX9X started showing up.
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/gallery.htm
Because these JH-7A all have the warning orange color for their numbers, the photos are of the same vintage and could not be of the same regiment.
Plus the numbers are actually 21X9X vs. 30X9X. In the 28th Division, the JH-7As are considered the lead group being the most advanced plane for that division. I gather the rest of the division are Q-5s. In fact 30X9X used to be Q-5 numbers but I guess the Q-5s have been renumbered ever since like 32X9X or 33X9X.
But in the 18th Division, the JH-7As have a regiment 1 number, which means they’re second dog to a top fiddle regiment. But we also know that the 18th Division also has Su-30MKKs, so like the 28th Division, this is also an attack and strike regiment, and the JH-7As take a secondary role to the Su-30MKKs, which is likely to be numbered 20X8X now.
Lately we also saw J-11s in the 1st Division numbered 10X2X. Previously they were using 11X2X numbers. Then the J-8Fs took the 11X2X numbers, and the J-11s were reassigned 10X2X numbers, again denoting the J-11s to be “higher” than the J-8Fs. I must note that the J-11 10021 isn’t the same J-11 as 11021, as noted in Hui Tong’s pictures in the link above, due to the differing color of their tail edges. Which makes me wonder why the 1st Division is getting even _newer_ J-11s, replacing previous even still new J-11s and where did the previous J-11s go. Also I sure like to see 12X2X or the third regiment of the 1st Division and what planes are they using now. Are they still using J-7Es? Or did they get more J-8Fs or got hand me down J-11s?
It is interesting that the J-10s in the 3rd Division are getting 10X4X numbers. Su-30MKKs also belong to the 3rd Division, but the J-10s are still getting the lead number of “0” which indicates a lot what the PLAAF thinks of the J-10 in relation to the Su-30MKK.
Cool, I must say you’ve done some serious analysis on the PLAAF naming schemes.
The regimental ranking seems to make a lot of sense too.
tphuangThis one. No. 50150. 55 – 11 = 44th Division. Second digit 0 means regiment number. 10 is the plane’s serial.
thanks, I got it.
so basically, we now have photographic evidence of J-10 in those 2 regiments in 44th division, FTTC and the one in 3rd.
Also, JH-7A in 18th division and 28th division.
tphuangWell, other than engine, what other foreign component is J-10 using? I know that’s a big one, but imo, Russian clearance will not be the reason that J-10 gets stopped from exporting.
tphuangThe planes are clearly regiment “0” of the 3rd Division, which makes it the leading formation. Since the 3rd Division also hosts a regiment of Su-30MKKs, putting that “0” gives the J-10 a new status higher than the Su-30MKKs. Given the 1054X and the 107XX number spread, that is at least 20 planes or the minimum of a regiment.
For now, photo evidence suggest the existance of 3-4 regiments. This subtle official PLA report suggests more grounds to support 2 regiments on the Chengdu MR alone. These plus the one on 13th Trials Regiment on the FTTC located in the Beijing MR, and the new regiment on the 3rd Division makes it four. The minimum size of each regiment is around 20, but given the sighting of numbers “21” and “22” among the 44th Division planes, it’s clear that the J-10 regiment numbers at least 22 planes.
Given this, the operational number of planes should be around 80-90. Then you add the 1 to 12 prototypes on top of that, and you reach a hundred.
Hey Crobato, do you have any photos of the “0th regiment” J-10 of 44th division? Huitong’s site only has links to “1st regiment”.
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