tphuangNot necessarily. How many Su-30MKs or MiG-29Ks are in Russian service, for example? They’ve got no problems marketing and selling those!
But they have a track record with quality fighters over the years. If they don’t have anything worthwhile in their air force, it would be hard to convince another country to purchase a design they come up with.
tphuangHe..he..I was the one who actually first posted the Kopyo-F brochure showing the FC-1. So what? That does’nt mean they claim that it has been selected. They even acknowledge that the Kopyo-F is still in development and unfunded.
The Grifo-F7 series is license produced at PAC Kamra. It makes a lot of sense for the PAF to go for the Grifo which they initially preferred and low cost is a selling point for it.
While I’m not discounting any report of a Chinese radar for the FC-1, it would be nice to know what its called at least? The other anomaly is the reference to a radar from a project that “does’nt officially exist”
Being a first world country does’nt automatically get you high flying hrs, a high standard of training, the best technology, numbers, a doctrine based on long term offensive operations or combat experience etc etc etc. The JASDF doctrine is almost entirely defensive and limited in scope of operations. Third world countries can have first rate, world beating, militaries. It all depends on the kind of threat scenario they face and how seriously they address it.
yeah, I can see where you are coming from. I guess we will know in a year or two. Actually, there are several firms in China that develops airbone radars and at least two that develops fighter radars. I’m not even sure right now which firm’s radar got offered to PAF.
tphuangyeah, not only Grifo-s7, but Phazotron believes Kopyo-F got selected for JF-17 too. But you know, we heard that Chinese radar/avionics got selected for the first 50 JF-17s from a few sources:
1) JDW article in 2004 – I believe it’s another interview with PAF ACM. I’m sure it’s in this forum somewhere. That’s where I first read it.
2) a Richard Fisher article – http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.48/pub_detail.asp
Since early in this program it was assumed that Pakistan and China would pursue different radar options, with the Italian Griffo being tipped as Pakistan’s likely choice, following on its selection for its Chengdu J-7PG fighters. However, Pakistani officials now disclose that a Chinese radar and avionics package will equip the first 50 JF-17s. China has taken a multi-mode radar developed for the Chengdu J-10 fighter and developed a smaller version, which a Pakistani official says, “have met our requirements—we have not lowered out requirements.”
3) numerous Chinese magazines that stated Pakistan chose Chinese radar for JF-17. But I would say that this is much less significant than the first two.
Anyway, in terms of western radar, I would say that Grifo has pretty much disappeared in the recent months. the one that seems to be gaining a lot of speed is Selex. Apparently, PAF is offered AESA radar there. Only time will tell.
A note to SOC, KJ-2000 is in service. The other Y-8 balance beam AEW is not in service though. It would be kind of hard for China to market its AWACS, if it has none of its own AWACS in service.
As for J-10, we have photographic evidences of 3 regiments. One in division 3, one in division 44 and one in FTTC. http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/gallery.htm
And division 2 is also reported to have a J-10 regiment in its Guangxi base.
We know from a CAC report that J-10B achieved IOC in late 2005 and J-10A achieved IOC in 2004. It’s mentionned as “a new jian fighter” rather than J-10.
tphuangThe Jf-17 were taken with chinese avionics not because they were of any quality but because they couldn’t afford the cost of grifo and other italian avionics. There are a lot of articles that point to the same. So stop spreading nonsense like grifo could not meet PAF’s requirements.
In numerous interview, PAF ACM said that Chinese avionics met their requirements, so you can judge what that means.
as for Grifo, I suggest you dig up one of the old JF-17 or Pakistani threads in this forum and just read up on it.
tphuangLet’s post some actual news for discussion. And this is a pretty interesting piece.
No clue as if it is one of the Y-8 variants or the KJ-2000.
Either way, it would have a technical advantage in integrating the J-7PGs, JF-17s and F-10s scheduled for the PAF.
Though the new F-16s might have a harder time being synched up. But who knows. The FD-60 SARH bvr is being promoted specifically for American-supplied aircraft (and we would persume, their radars, since a semi-active radar homer would be useless without integration.)
I would say that it’s the Y-8 AEW (the one with the radome). I really don’t see why PAF would need more AEW at this point, but obviously the Chinese delegation sees it differently.
tphuangNope the plane that was shot down was in POK side. Of course there was no confrontation with PAf, thats the whole point PAF just chickened out. The J-10 is crap because the pakistanis are not asking for chinese avionics in JF-17 are they? They still want italian/ french/ swedish stuff in it. Feel free to believe what you will but i think most people know J-10 would be hardly any match for F-16 MLU, let alone gripen.
Pakistani JF-17 is using all Chinese avionics. I really do suggest you check this up. It passed PAF standards which Grifo radar was not able to.
And JF-17 uses downgraded avionics compared to J-10.
As for the stuff about Gripen not being offered. That Swedish guy made that comment in 2004 and then he wasn’t sure what those systems were even pointing to. We know that as of 2005, their AWACS was allowed to be exported. You really think if AWACS is allowed to be exported, fighters would not be? And as of late 2005, PAF ACM said that they evaluated F-16, J-10 and Gripen.
As for Pakistan sending a F-16 to China, you really can’t use stuff like fas and globesecurity and newsmax to prove Chinese news. This is a well known fact. You can ask any PLA followers.
As for J-11B, I’d like to clarify a little bit. J-11B was going to go ahead regardless of whether J-11A (basically su-27 airframe with N-001VE as radar and R-77 capable) continued production or not. If PLA was satisfied with the performance of J-11A, it could’ve continued to finish the 200 fighter license rather than cancelling it (China already paid for all the kits). So, it could’ve in essence continued the J-11A production for the duration of 200 units + produced J-11B at the same time. We know that China told the Russians to stop sending kits. But of course, it continued to assemble the kits that already got sent. We saw J-11B and WZ-10 undergoing testing at the same time and we know there have been new J-11 regiment since the when China told the Russians to stop sending kits. So, what does that mean? J-11A and J-11B are getting produced at the same time right now. If Russians did not send any more kits to China after 2004, then we should see the kits been used up soon.
So, imo, J-11A kits were halted and su-30s got no more orders due to PLA’s view toward their performance. And coincidentally, both happened in late 2004. (su-30 orders were made at late 1999, middle 2001 and early 2003. So using that chronological events, you would expect another order at around late 2004) And we know that a lot of the reports toward the results between J-10 and flankers came out in the beginning of 2005.
And another thing is that J-10 is not the plane that China wants to export at the moment. China wants to export JF-17 for obvious reasons.
tphuangLOL Plaaf after ordering 400 su-30’s stopped ordering them?? Pakistan is desperate and has no choice. Do read the links posted earlier. They tried to get gripen but failed and they know J-10 is not even in the same league.
PAf and PLAAF’s brilliance is well known. The lesser said about them the better for everyone.
plaaf ordered 76 su-30mkk and stopped. planaf ordered 24 mk2s and stopped. The Russians were expecting follow on ordres, but they never came. No, I don’t know how authentic your link is, but the story I found was from the mouth of PAF ACM himself in an interview with JDW in late 2005.
Just checked your article, it was from 2004.
tphuangIf they go for any rubbish like J-10 over F-16 blk 52 they certainly are morons. CAT I have given you a link which explicitly says that sweden has refused to even consider selling gripen to pakistan. Personally I like the gripen more than F-16 and doubt J-10’s ability to match it in any manner except perhaps range.
PAF are so stupid that they chose this piece of rubbish ahead of F-16 and Gripen. PLAAF is so stupid that stopped ordering su-30 and licensed production of su-27 because of this rubbish.
To stealth spy, the sources you listed are not really legitimate sources for Chinese news. I’m not saying that Pakistan did or did not provide a F-16 to China, but that fas, globalsecurity and newsmax are normally extremely unreliable. And kanwa is better, but it still gets news wrong too.
To bring_it_on, my entire point is not saying anything good/bad about F-22, but rather that you can show someone something without the intention to immediately sell it to that person.
RAF had training with F-22 well before US decided that it would allow trusted countries to purchase it (which was early this year I believe). And even now, I wonder whether the congress would allow F-22 to be exported when the time comes, but that’s totally off topic.
tphuangkhanasifm, you had an entire night and you still haven’t found this claim that J-10’s avionics is not up to PAF standard.
qantaz, as I said before, Gripen was definitely offered and evaluated. PAF ACM himself said so in an interview. What more evidence do you need?
bring_it_on, I know several close allies like RAF got close to F-22, that’s why I said that just because you allow someone to see it, doesn’t mean you want to export it right away.
as for downgraded capabilities, we know about the F-16s not being nuclear capable, but do we know what else is downgraded?
tphuangWhy would CAITAC show it to Mushy and PAF evaluated it and said under current config it does not meet PAF req. in Aircraft Avonics?
where did it say that? I seemed to have read that Pakistan was pretty excited about J-10 in all of the recent reports.
Does USAF allow close allies to see and fly F-22? Is it looking to export it anytime soon? China will export this plane when it feels the time is right and we will know when that is when a deal is signed.
As for where it said PAF was evaluating Gripen, it was on a JDW article. If you search hard enough, you can probably find it. It was an interview the the PAF ACM.
tphuangThats great so they can easily dump the NEUTERED Viper and just substitute it by buying more J10’s (from what i make almost 3 J-10’s can bought for a standard F-16C so economies should work aswell) The F-16’s being offered with reduced capability then can be outright rejected and UNKIL can be told that unless you offer something worthwile we wont buy your equipment,that can either force unkil to sell something even better (maybe F-16 G/H block 80 or F-35 Lightining 2 ) .
well, the J-10 that Pakistan gets will be an export version
The problem with J-10 deal is that Pakistan made the announcement for J-10s, but there has been no report from China that it’s selling it. You can interpret whatever that means.
tphuangPAF evaluated between more F-16s, J-10 and Gripen and chose J-10, so Gripen is off the table.
tphuangErr… I don’t believe the 15 million JF-17 price. Of course without any radar and avionics, it must only cost 15 million, but then it is anyway completely outclassed by the F-16.
Of course, the 15 million is not including servicing and support.
But as for you don’t believe 15 million is JF-17’s price, that’s your own problem. Some Chinese people believe 25 million US is paying too much for a fighter. Why? Everything can be done more cheaply in China. On a sidenote, the PLA version of JF-17 was mentionned as 10 million in an interview with the JL-15 developer.
As for radar, read the post before my and remember that we are talking about a slotted array radar right now, not an AESA radar.
tphuangBecause its obvious to me that with your attitude you are either a Chicom or a sniveling little toadie to the Chicoms…and Tibet has everything to do with China’s true colors and what would happen to many of its other neighbors if the “imperialist’ Americans weren’t around to stop them.
US Agent, I suggest you take a history lesson of China/Tibet + learn what communism means.
btw, moderators, how come we aren’t suspending people for using terms like “chicom”? Clearly, this dude was using it in a derogatory term.
tphuangI actually think that Pakistan will continue buying F-16’s until it becomes the most numerically superior aircraft in the inventory. The JF-17 buy will be limited to 150 aircraft. My reasoning is based on this:
a.) Pakistan can’t afford expensive aircraft such as the F-35 orEurofighter
b.) Poltical obstacles means that it probably would not have access to the F-35 or Eurofighter anyway.
c.) Political obstacles also mean that Russian fighter aircraft are unobtainable
d.) I don’t think that Chinese aircraft provide any sort of operational improvement over an F-16. The last thing I read said the JF-17 was comparable to an F-16C-40 at best. The J-10 is still an unknown quantity to the West..
e.) The F-16 is available in large numbers and this will increase as the NATO airforces retire their F-16A/B’s in the near future. The USAF is also retiring it’s more modern F-16C/D’s. So the opportunity exists for more cheap second hand F-16’s. This sort of facility does not exist with other available aircraft – even the French never acquired that many Mirage 2000’s or the Swedes with their Gripens.
yeah, I do agree that getting second hand F-16s is a good idea for PAF. Frankly, paying 83 million per pop is a little too much when JF-17s cost 15 million each.
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