I’m still puzzled by this: the underside of the launcher box appears a better match with RAM than with FL3000N. And in other aspects (notably frontal), the box of the alledged FL3000N appears less tall than in other imagery we’ve seen of this system.

FL3000N

RAM

Alledged FL300N

FL300N model

FL3000N is the export model and the domestic version is called HQ-10. They are not exactly the same for obvious reasons. HQ-10 could be more like SeaRAM than FL3000N. We will see when they uncover the tarp.

What engine to power J-20, which touches some most vulnerable area of Chinese aviation industries. Officially, the WS-15 is still the final powerplant for upcoming Chinese 5th generation fighter jet, as illustrated by below chart. The image at upmost right is the core engine of WS-15.

Since this chart has been existing for quite some time now, the prototype of Ws-15 should be ready by now, possible finished or undergoing high altitude tests to this point of time.

WS-10 official max thrust is 122kn, on par with that of AL31F, even though the WS-10 reached > 130kn during endurance test, probably so that it can be conveniently exchanged with AL31F on J11s. be mindful, the Russians have stopped any AL31F for J11s, WS-10 is the only choice, and it’s mature now with massive production and consistent J11Bs/J11BSs being produced and inducted .

Now there’s improved Ws-10G, with FADEC, 1st customer most likely to be PLANAF’s J15 for better TWR needed during aircraft carrier’s taking off. However, as J-15 itself is in prototype stage, unlikely, Ws-10G could be mature at present and being installed on J20 prototype.

The j-20 main contractor, CAC has a close working relation with Russia’s Salyut, Salyut secured AL-31F contract from Saturn because of Chinese order ( CAC’s J10), and developed improved AL-31F-m1, m2 , m3 etc, solely for CAC initially, although later the Al31F-M1 became the standard powerplant of Su27SM. The AL31F-M1 reaches 13 ton max thust, slightly higher than wS-10 current allowed max thust . M2 reaches 14 tons, currently the best can be offered by Salyut to CAC, I suspect the Al-31F-M2 could have been installed in the J-20 prototype.

But nevertheless, J-20 will be powered by Ws-15 turbofan, yes, I have to prioritize the official news, don’t we.;) For some more details on core engine of WS-15, we actually had some discussion 4 years ago:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=49067&highlight=pinko&page=8

a couple of things:
1) I would not expect real photos of J-20 out there yet and any CG should be regarded as such and does not reflect the aircraft
2) WS-15 is slated to be the engine for J-20, but when it will be ready is another story.
3) WS-10A has shown the struggle that China is having with turbofan development and especially production. Always be conservative when talking about which engine will be ready and when.

I think that there is an element of speculation in everything anyone is saying. I’d say that whether tphaung agrees with me or not is as whether I’d agree with him. We are all speculating.

To tphaung’s credit, he has done some good work before, but I’d still take his assertions with a rather healthy dose of salt. I personally take Eagle Hannan’s assertions with a degree of authenticity and don’t think he (or the PAF officials he quotes) as making things up. Thus my summary of his work.

I had no clue that my work would be so widely distributed. I’m really doing my best and with sincerity. Don’t agree with me, that’s fine. Don’t like my translation, that’s fine too. What saddens me most is to see Pakistanis call me names, that too on Pakdef. I have left the United States, material well being, possessions and benefits and family to struggle for Islam and Pakistan, a country I don’t claim to belong to. The least one could do is show some modicum of respect. But then, fortunately my reward is elsewhere.

where is this guy’s proof that he is authentic or that he spoke to PAF officials? I’d like to see that. I’m stating that I know the weaknesses and failures in different Chinese projects and they also exist in the projects involving PAF.

This Eagle Hannan guy could be authentic, but most authentic posters are far more balanced in their views. The US military is by far the strongest in the world, yet the naval blog that I contribute to has plenty of criticisms and pessimistic views (as well as praise and positive views) toward USN. I find it hard to give credibility to a guy who is trying to sound like the former Iraqi Information minister.

SD-10A = SD-10B

depending on how you want to name it. For instance, there was no AIM-120 A with the first model, only when the second model came was it called so, and the second model was called a B. As compared to calling the WS-10’s newer version a WS-10A.

A little reflection may help before switching on a sardonic mode. 😉

The designation for different variant of Taihang is confusing, not simply just WS-10 and WS-10A.

As for this “new variant” of SD-10, just because a couple of guys on pakdef wanted to say that there is this new magic variant of SD-10, so that they can say what an amazing weapon PAF has that nobody else has. That does not mean this really is happening. And having your own website does not make you legitimate. How many other predictions on his website has turned out correct?

there was discussion going on the BVRAAM choice of PAF for JF-17 and he and another guy said that PAF officials have told them that PAF is getting an improved SD-10(improvement over the basic version) which is already in production for PLAAF. because of that some guys called it SD-10B(just to easily identify the improved SD-10 for purpose of discussion). PAF officials never used such term.

there is possibly a couple of changes to adapt to PAF’s operating environment. But if it’s a genuine useful change, they’d put it on SD-10A itself and advertise it.

But as for the original assertion of China buying JF-17. If they do end up purchasing it, they won’t do it until the WS-13 option becomes mature. As they have shown with WS-10A, that could take a while.

It might look like a wind tunnel model of the Chengdu J-10; but there are some subtle differences. Take note of the air intake and the wings look like they have compound sweep – a double-delta planform. Plus also note the date (or apparent date) on the image. This date – 1984 – does not match the development period for the J-10:confused:

I think you can safely ignore this photo. CAC was obviously working on separate projects before J-10 got national funding.

Well, Janes is wrong with the last point – the JF-17 didn’t display the latest SD-10, it was an older one.

See here

SD-10B? What the heck is that?

They have barely cleared PL-12 for service for PLAAF and now we’ve moved onto B variants of SD-10 already?

To me it looks like a re-hashed MiG 1.44 (MiG-39 Flatpack). All Chinese secrecy aside. it was officially released at the Zhuhai Airshow 2010 of just what the 4th generation Chinese air superiority fighter will look like. It also confirms all of the previous rumors of it being based on the Russian MiG 1.44 prototype. 😎 This is official and not just some fanboy artwork. And, it is referred to as a 4th generation fighter, rather than a 5th generation type fighter.

They are not going to reveal true photos of the 4th gen fighter. They are simply not going to. What you show is just some stuff that they are showing on CCTV. They have that kind of stuff all the time. Again, we will see what the fighter jet when we get the first set of photos on them. There is a very reliable way that we have been getting initial looks at new fighter jets for PLAAF and TV news is not it.

Members Fedaykin and avionesq are correct in putting out their skeptisisms on the J-20 and its existence. But since there is in fact a program current at Chengdu (No. 611) for the aircraft, its more than just mere rumor of “a couple of fans” – It is a real program. And an official has gone on national Chinese TV to explain the connection between the Chinese J-20 from Chengdu and the Russian Sukhoi T-50. The J-20 prototypes are even said to be powered by the Saturn 117S engine – the same engine as in the T-50. Hell, even the rear shot of the J-20 CG has an un-mistakeable resemblance to the aft end of the T-50 – even the all-moving vertical tail fins are the same. With the secrecy of the Chinese – who knows what agreements have been made between the Chinese and the Russians on this program. Here are three images from Chinese TV, of General Zhang Zhaozhang, talking about the connection between the J-20 and the T-50. J-20 prototypes 2001 and 2002 have already been built and 2001 has already conducted slow taxi tests at Chengdu – to fly before the end of 2010. More will be released during the Zhuhai Airshow – November 16 through 21 – next week about the progress on the J-20.:)

Yes, there is a 5th generation program at CAC that was officially picked in 2008. And we also know that back in 2009, deputy air marshall of PLAAF said that China was about 8 to 10 years from achieving operational status for this aircraft.

Even so, I think it’s probably a good idea for you to wait until we actually get real photos before posting. Everything you have been posting are fan art. I don’t know if you realize this, but non-PLAAF followers generally are not too tolerant of this. Just an advice from a long time pla watcher.

I disagree with you at the avionics,becouse the Russians are certanly not lagging behind of China in this field!
Russia has allready digital cockpits in use, look at MIG-29SM and Su-27SM.This are the first generation digital cocpits.
With the Su-35BM and MIG-35 and Yak-130 they have the second generation digital cockpits allready flying.If you compare the cockpit of the J-10 and Su-35BM,you can see that the Russians have big F-35 like collored screens than the tiny screens of J-10.
And the production T-50 will get an even more modern digital cockpit,theyve allready a wide screen HUD in their T-50 prototype! I havent seen a Chinese one yet.
So there much evidence that Russia isnt lagging behind China

btw, you are comparing J-10 (or even JF-17) which is already in service to Su-35, which is not in service. Now, unfortunately, we don’t really see too many cockpits of J-10B or J-20, because China does not reveal these things until they are in production. We can even see from J-11B, which is also in service, that it has had quite a huge upgrade in cockpit from J-10.

all you need to know about Chinese defense electronics from recent CIDEX 2010
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.230/pub_detail.asp

In the 1990s, when the Russian defence was in danger of drying up and closing its doors due to an almost complete collapse in any funding from their own government, it was China that saved the day. China bought billions in military hardware from Russia, but it also sent its engineers, designers and technicians to study inside of Russian industry to learn how the weapons it was purchasing had been developed in the first place.

This transfer of technological know-how, plus some enormous investments by the Chinese military into its state-owned industries (what more than one Russian has referred to as “uncontrolled and rampant modernisation”) has produced a defence electronics industry that far outstrips the size and capacity of that which existed in Russia when Chinese industry first began their cooperation with Moscow in the early 1990s.

Today the former students (the Chinese) have become the masters. Chinese industry now has the ability to produce components that the Russian electronics industry (after almost two decades of no investment by their government) is no longer capable of either designing or manufacturing. The initial failure rates on the production of transmit/receive (T/R) modules for the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars being designed for the Mikoyan MiG-35 and the Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA 5th-generation fighter, for example, were so high that it would have bankrupted any western firm involved in a similar programme.

Not surprisingly, this year’s CIDEX show saw groups of Russian specialists going through the halls and looking for components that they could source out of China to be utilised in Russian-designed weapon systems. Russian specialists will point out that they are now at a huge disadvantage to the Chinese in two very significant respects.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/27/china-us-europe-standards-weapons-electronics/

China revealed during a recent defense industry show that its defense electronics are rapidly advancing to First World military standards.

The communist regime’s defense electronics prowess was on display at the recent China Defense Electronics Exposition (CIDEX) in Beijing from May 12 to 14.

“The type of components I am seeing in China are not readily available anywhere — except maybe in the U.S.,” said a Ukrainian defense electronics specialist who attended the show.

“If I go to a European supplier looking for similar products, they will probably tell me that they are just not in series production yet — maybe in six months or more they might be,” he said.

“The best I might hope for is to be given one or two ‘working models’ that I could only use for development and design work, but nothing I could use to turn out a final, manufactured product for a customer,” the Ukrainian specialist said. “But here in China, I can buy as many of these as I need — and usually at a lower price.”

…..

Foreign participants — sellers and buyers — are aware of the PLA sponsorship. On the buying side, foreign delegations came from Russia and Ukraine looking at purchasing Chinese electronics and other components and systems for their own weapons applications.

….

“In many areas, Chinese [military] equipment is either equal to in capability or superior to that designed in Russia in the present day,” said a Moscow-based defense analyst. “It is only a matter of time before they pass up Russia completely and achieve parity with U.S. and European weapon systems.”

And these are clearly not things that I just made up. These are spoken from the Russian/Ukrainian delegations.

Each aircraft generation needs new tooling, new building technologies and new lathes and mills.
Each new prototype has to pass at least 5-6 years of tests.
China is not in that stage, they can make the Su-33 because the original tooling they got for the Su-27SK does not change too much from the one used on the Su-33.
The F-22 does not use the same tooling to build the F-15 or F-14 niether the T-50 uses the same tooling used on the Su-27.
The same applies to engines even the newest Al-41 or 117S are not exactly using the same tooling used for the Al-31F.
Copying the F-22 is not just making a copy of the aircraft in CG or in a wooden mock up, the Chinese are not going to use the same technologies used on the J-10 or J-11B on a fifth generation.
The Su-35BM is a good example it uses a different engine and avionics than the original Su-27 but basicly it is a generation behind the T-50, you can not make the Su-35BM a fifth generation fighter unless you make a new aircraft.

The only way china can do the leap is by direct input from the F-22 or T-50, the Indians in that way are closer to get some key technologies than the Chinese but unless china get the techology from Russia or the US they won`t make the leap in 10 or 15 years, China might be flying a fifth generation by 2015 or 2018 but now it is hardt to tell just by a rumour of a couple of fans .

What’s your point? They’ve done that with J-10, JF-17 and JH-7A. Their manufacturing/automation industry has only gotten better in the past 10 years. If you just even do a search on something like China CNC machines, you’d see how much better they’ve gotten in this area. If they could set up J-10’s production line back in the days, they should be able to do it for the next gen fighter.

so next week we will see the J-XX fly at zhuhai ? or did I misunderstand the comments here ?

nope, not for a while. PLAAF still tries to keep these high level projects secret for as long as possible, although things do get revealed much earlier now.

Do we have any information, or news and speculation of Chinese 5th generation?

* Will they jointly develop with Pakistan or sell to them?*
* Are they competent in the relevant tech? Can they they produce a 5th generation engine? have they demonstrated a AESA capability*
* we have a ton of rumored designs Like forward swept wings and canards which have all bee rejected for various reasons by the worlds top design teams
which way will the Chinese take?*
* are the Chinese influenced more by Russian 5th generation designs or the west?*
* and finally what would be the IOC date for this Chinese fighter*

There are a lot of news come out, but I generally don’t like to go through the bits and pieces. As in everything else in PLA, photos are the most credible source. To answer your questions:
– they are not developing with Pakistan. Selling will happen, but not anytime soon, since they are going to sell them a variant of J-10 first.
– AESA and other electronics shouldn’t be a problem, check this article on cidex 2010 on China’s recent electronic advancements
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.230/pub_detail.asp
– engine is a huge problem, not sure when Ws-15 will be ready. If we base it on news clips + past turbofan engine development timeline, it should be in serial production by 2020. We will probably see news of it starting being fitted on and tested on planes starting in 2015. The first batches and prototypes will probably fly with some upgraded variant of WS-10 or some Russian engine.
– not really sure, I’ve seen a bunch of rumours. Will just have to wait and see.
– I think China would like to mirror US designs, but I don’t think it can achieve the same level of stealth.
– as for a general timeline. CAC’s design was picked in 2008 as the winner of the contest. Now, it took 18 years from CAC to go from getting picked as the designer of J-10 to the first operational regiment. That 18 years did include a redesign to fit around AL-31FN. So, I don’t think that CAC will take that long this time (especially seeing the progress of J-10B and JF-17 development). Also, the CAC’s design in 2008 was a lot further along than its design in 1986 for J-10. They also carry a lot less risks, since they have a lot of the sub-systems that are already very far along. In fact, a lot of these are being tested on J-10B. A lot of the missiles are also been developed for J-10B and different flanker variants. So, they definitely have a much less daunting task this time around. The PLAAF air marshall had said in 2009 that he expected next gen fighter to enter service around 2017-2019. The word is that a prototype is already built and it should first fly sometime in the next 2 years. If we use the 6 year timeline that took J-10 to go from first flight to been in service. I would say 2018 is a probably realistic time of having a first operational regiment if all goes well, but it could easily get delayed to 2020 or beyond.
– As a separate note, it’s been said that even though SAC lost out, they still got funding for a second design. We could see a hi-lo 5th gen option for PLAAF. but as you can see, it’s so far down the road.