tphuangA Mach 2.4 aircraft will have a much shorter reaction time than a subsonic B-2. That’s the idea, at least. This is potentially part of the USAF’s Prompt Global Strike initiative.
I don’t think anyone will question its capabilities, but it looks like one of those programs that will get huge development cost and cancelled in the middle. If something like this comes out, it’s unit cost might balloon to something like 5 billion each. But then again, you might only 6 B-3s to do all the striking you need.
tphuangI see absolute no need for something like this, why don’t they just produce more B-2 then?
tphuangThe PLAAF have never had and are never likely to have Sunburn missiles in service. Why would they want the air launched equivelent, unless that was all they were offered.
huh? so, basically you agree with me that air launched sunburn is not worth it?
Do you think a missile coming in under the radar at mach 2.5 is the same thing as a missile coming in at mach 0.8? Unless you detect it at long range even the best air defence systems will have problems detecting a mach 2.5 missile flying at 3-7 metres above the water till it is too late to do anything. The initial radar detection of the target vessel might give them a warning, but most radars and missile systems take a few minutes to power up… or are US systems on all the time?
doesn’t matter how fast something is coming at you, you detect it the same way. Most missile systems take few minutes to power up? Sure, they do. So what? Do you know how they schedule it? There are multiple air defence ships per CVBG. They don’t have to all be on at the same time even in war time. As for staying on all the time, the technology has improved significantly since operating Desert Storm. I’m sure they can stay online for a significant amount of time. So for the purpose of this, you can assume that you will always be facing at least one AD ship with power turned on. And once it detects you, the other AD ships will also turn the power on. It will no longer be a surprise attack.
My figures show launch weights of just below 2 tons, well within the Su-30s max of 8 tons. Three long slim missiles are hardly going to be high drag ordinance… it would probably be a much lower drag loadout than 12 AAMs.
The club with supersonic terminal stage is 2.3 tonne according to http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/navalmissile/3m54.asp
And who is comparing 3 club layout with 12 AAM layout? how about 3 club vs 3 kh-31 and 3 kh-59. The second option is lighter. Logically speaking, that should mean further operating radius for the same fuel tank.
Moskits were designed to kill AEGIS class cruisers and considering the Standard missile at the time couldn’t hit targets below 7m and Phalanx couldn’t hit sea skimming high speed targets due to multipath returns it most certainly could kill AEGIS class cruisers.
Being able to hit ballistic missiles sounds wonderful, but considering that a ballistic missile is like a thrown rock that has a very predictible path it is actually much easier to hit than a high speed low flying missile that can manouver.
lol, ballistic missiles are far harder to hit than Anti ship cruise missiles. They come at you at mach 17 instead of mach0.9 -2.5. And you know where the AShM are going and you have no idea where the ballistic missiles are going.
Moskits were designed to kill Aegis class cruiser? standard can’t hit targets below 7m? I guess you are not mentionning ESSM and SeaRAM here. I guess PLAN’s set of YJ-62 and YJ-83 and Moskits are immune to Standard then. I guess USN really is totally doomed then.
S-400 is designed against stealth object too. Do you think it can shoot down a B-2? What you need to do is go to Defencetalk and search up the old “kill CVBG thread” and read what gf wrote.
Just like the Stark could shoot down AShMs and so could the Sheffield… When the AEGIS class cruiser shot down an airbus it took over two minutes to get the Standard missile launched… there was a malfunction… if the threat had been real that uber cruiser would have been in serious trouble. Tests are one thing real combat with islands and friendlies not to mention neutrals can make the issue very difficult.
occassionally, tests will show flaw over AD software, but in general, these kind of tests will only improve it. While such failures cause sensations in the media, that doesn’t mean the system does not work. In general, each system has a reliability number. And with several AD ships having the same high reliability, your overall system reliability goes up big time.
For example, if you have 2 ships, each with reliability of 99%. Then, you would have an overall system reliability of 99.99%.
And for many targets one Kh-31 will make more sense than one Moskit. However the option of hitting a target with 300kg HE instead of 90 odd kgs must be useful sometimes.
Yes. That is my point. Defences have moved on… why do you think the method of attack should stay stuck in the 70s?
300kg is not going to sink any CVN. a 90 kg that gets through is better than a 300 kg that gets shot down.
defence has advanced a lot more. And it can improve to the point that no matter how advanced the attacking missile is, it would not be able to penetrate the defence unless the defensive system suffers a breakdown.
tphuangI’m not so sure about that, SeaLL might be neutral otherwise, but this thread sure does not seem to highlight that neutral tendency of his. Nick pretty much has him on a number of important points:
1) Insisting upon the media reports being completely true despite the fact that the official document is yet to be released. He seems to make his vehemence even stronger since he cannot (has not so far anyway) pointed out any official indian sources, only second/third party sources at best.
2) Falsifying and sanctioning media reports as per his convenience. hence the tendency to ignore the israeli report while taking the indian media reports as gospel.
3) Categorically denying his own comments about India wanting the JSF and being turned down by the U.S. Again SLLis unwilling/unable to backup his claim with any sources.
4) Making slanderous comments such as Britain “owning” india which clearly belie his bias.And you call him neutral.Riiight.
Regards,
USS.
There are people on this forum who are extremely pro-india, pro-pakistani or pro-China. There seems to be quite a lot of them on this thread. It gets annoying. SeaLordlawrence on the other hand has been posting a lot longer and seems to have far better knowledge. I personally had plenty of argument with him, because of our differing views on Russian stuffs. I haven’t found anything he posted in the past to be “anti-indian”.
As for the four points he listed, I don’t even understand why you are so offended by them.
just my $0.02
tphuangNo. Air forces rarely need or want commonality with their navies… except when they are made to.
lol, that’s definitely not the reason. If you are saying that PLAAF didn’t get moskit because of pride, that’s not the case
So 12 F-16s attacking an S-300 battery would have a better chance than one F-22?
Harpoon and Exocet types work well when they have surprise on their side. Having to have 5-10 aircraft in an attack negates that surprise factor.
lol, you are comparing non-stealth aircraft to stealth aircraft now? 1 F-22 surprises a S-300 battery because they can’t detect it, not because there is only one of it. Surprise? Maybe you should read up on the results of SM-3. All of their tests were surprise. Modern AD is capable of detecting aircrafts and shooting them down no matter how many they are facing.
The Kh-59ME is 930kgs for a range of 115km, and the Kh-31A is 610kgs. The Kh-31 is faster than the Kh-59ME, but with a warhead of 94kgs it is a bit of a lightweight. The Kh-59ME has a warhead of 320kgs but requires a seperate guidance pod that takes up a pylon. Moskit has a warhead of 300kgs and a speed of mach 2.5. The Club missile system that can be carried in threes on a Flanker has a range of 220-300km depending upon the model and ranges from 220-280km. The version with a mach three terminal phase portion carrys a 200kg HE warhead while the subsonic all the way model has 400kgs of HE.
if kh-59me is 930kg, then it’s getting a little heavy too. Sure, you can theoretically carry 3 club, but then you won’t be able to operate as far out with such a heavy load and such.
Seems to me a little bit of everything would make the most sense, with a few Moskits/Yakhonts/Brahmos’s to take out the air defence ships and cheaper more plentiful subsonic and supersonic models to engage the lesser ships.
what gives you the impression that moskits/yakhont/brahmos can take out the air defence ships? what? Do you know what Aegis is designed for? If SM-3 can shoot down Ballistic missile going at whatever speed it goes at. What makes you think Moskit/Yakhont/Brahmos can evade them? The British Type 45s can shoot them down. The other PAAMS AD frigates/destroyers can shoot them down. I’m sure the kirovs and 052Cs can shoot them down.
No, the Kh-31 does not fly at mach 4.5. Its peak speed is 1,000m/s, which equates to just over mach 3. Very fast of course, and faster than Moskit, which flys at mach 2.5, but the Moskit isn’t that big for nothing. The Kh-31 climbs and flys at medium altitude to get the range of 110km, if the Moskit did the same its flight range (with the last 50km at low level) would be 250km. The Moskit has a low low low range of 120km where its highest flight is 300m above the waves to find the target after which it drops to below 7m to impact.
according to sinodefence, it flies at mach 4.5, but it could be wrong. I never said moskit has the range as kh-31. A bigger missile like moskit should obviously have its range advantages. Point being, kh-31 can be launched outside the range of SAM. Again, the ship would be facing 7 kh-31 instead of 1 moskit.
Aegis was almost killed by an Airbus!… do you think it is perfect now? On paper the Sheffield should have been safe from Exocets. When you are the attacker you have a huge advantage of choosing where and when to fight.
the air defence systems has developed in the last 20 years. And don’t even try to equate a Burke to type 42.
tphuangIt could be used with flankers. If the Chinese wanted commonality and the Russians didn’t want to export Yakhont and weren’t allowed to export Brahmos to China because India didn’t want them to, then air launched Moskit would be another option. Or do you think they just placed moskit in front of naval flankers because they thought it might look nice. Of course they have checked to make sure it could be carried, evne if they haven’t spent the money to integrate the missile to allow it to be carried. (of course that is just an unfounded assumption that they haven’t… the truth is no one knows who is in a position to say publicly.)
Does it tell you something that China chose KH-59 and KH-31 rather than Moskit?
And I am saying that for some targets firing one missile the target can’t shoot down is better than firing lots that it can just to try to overwhelm the defences. On paper the Exocet had no chance against British ships. Seawolf and Seadart should have been sufficient. They weren’t. Imagine how much more effective the exocet would have been if they had all exploded properly, or had been launched in groups of 6-12 or more. But then could the Argentine AF have managed such an attack… and how often. One attack with a dozen missiles might have resulted in 2-3 ships hit multiple times, but 12 individual attacks might have damaged more ships and been less likely detected.
huh? concentrated attacks work a lot more effective against modern AD. Even then, they are not guaranteed success.
The Kh-59 is not supersonic. It has a small turbofan engine and flys at about 280m/s. The speed of sound is about 320m/s.
The Kh-59 weighs about 900kg, so the Yakhont at 2.5 tons is only 150% heavier, has a longer range and flys three times faster. The Yakhont takes up the centreline pylons, so you could still carry Kh-59s, Kh-35s, and/or Kh-31A anti ship missiles.
my bad, kh-31 is the supersonic one. It’s 600 kg. KH-59 is 760 kg according to sinodefence. I’m not sure about the extended range kh-59mk though. Again, so basically for 1 yakhont, you can carry 2 kh-59 and 2 kh-31 for different missions. What would you rather have?
Firing a very high speed missile like a Yakhont first and then firing some subsonic low flying missiles might result in better kill ratios. The high speed missiles making the target much more vulnerable to the subsequent subsonic missile attack
yes, kh-31, mach4.5, I think that’s fast enough.
To overwhelm a target amongst a group you would need as many missiles as you could manage. That would mean lots of aircraft. With Yakhont, one or two aircraft with 3 or 6 Yakhonts plus a few subsonic missiles would be enough.
You think you can defeat Aegis with 6 yakhont? lol, the crazy things I read.
tphuangBecause a certain poster cannot bear to accept the fact that the Indian media does not always report the actual details of what the CAG/ PAC tables, and is seeking to whine and bluster when its pointed out that its better to be conservative & wait for the actual report to see what it says in entirety.
But no- for this person, its an ego trip. Gee, I dared to point out to “Sea Lord Lawrence” that such could be the case, and AFM which often quotes the local media when it comes to India, may not have the complete details of the report…
Dare one correct the Sea Lord.. :rolleyes:
actually SeaLordLawrence is pretty neutral (even pretty pro-Russian aircraft producer) on matters like this, it seems like you are the one that seems to get upset over nothing.
tphuangYes the F-15 put up a really good show against the MK’s. wonder what all the whining was about?? 100 to 0 against whom, the arabs or some african country? It is a useless junk compared to any plane that competed in the korean fighter selection. It was stuffed down there throat. 😀
maybe you should do a search and read up what DACT means?
tphuangOne of these ?
yes most likely this one. It could’ve been one of an earlier variant of Y-8, balance beam was originally put on top of Y-8F200
tphuangI mentioned the Backfire, because it is the standard aircraft the Russians use to attack carrier groups with missiles to point out that 4.5 tons is not that big a difference from the Kh-22M they normally carry.
This thread is about Chavez and his most recent purchase. Su-30s can be equipped with Yakhonts or Clubs.
So, why are you making it sound like Moskit is actually useful with flankers?
The Su-30 could carry the Kh-35 if they want such a capability. The point is that and F-16 could carry Harpoon but could not carry a Moskit or Yakhont. The SU-30 could. The F-16 might be able to be modified to carry such weapons but the US doesn’t have those types of weapons to offer and even if it did I very much doubt they give clearance to export them to Hugo Chavez.
I’m saying it doesn’t make sense to launch those oversized AShM from fighters when shorter ranged and lighter AShM can do much better jobs, since it allows you to do concentrated attacks on opposing ships and such.
Su-27s in Russian service rarely fly with full fuel tanks. I doubt the Su-30s would be any different. For many targets a simple missile like Kh-35 is all you need but there are some targets where such a weapon is inadequate and something better is needed. With Su-30 they have more options, from the Moskit to Yakhont or Brahmos, to Club with a mach 3 terminal phase rocket section mounted on a subsonic antiship cruise missile.
as I said, why do you want to fire those, when you can only carry 1 of them? It’s much better to carry 6 AShM like KH-59 (which is still supersonic, but just has shorter range). If you fly low enough, you are still going to be outside the range of opposing SAM when you are firing them.
tphuanggood thing we are getting some modern transports. Maybe we will actually have the money to upgrade some of our other outdated equipments with the new conservative government.
tphuangRubbish. The standard Russian aircraft for delivering anti ship cruise missiles is the Tu-22M3. It could easily carry 4 externally. At 4.5 tons the Moskit was heavy but at 2.5 tons the Onyx is not that much of a big deal for the types of aircraft that would be carrying it.
Ummm… yes… why are you comparing a land attack cruise missile that uses optical guidance with a supersonic anti ship missile?
Or it could carry 1 Brahmos and 2 Clubs. It would certainly not be able to carry 8 SLAM-ERs in any configuration. SLAM-ERs are American.
Right, I thought we are talking about flankers and the missiles they can be equipped with? Or is RuAF offering backfire to Venezeulans now? 2.5 tons is still pretty heavy when compared to some of the western AShM.
If you don’t like SLAM-ER, then replace that with air launched version of Harpoon. It makes a big difference to not have to carry 3 to 4.5 ton AShM. You can actually have a longer operating radius, carry some AAMs for self-defense and such. Stick with KH-59 series, they may not go as far or as fast, but at least you can cary multiple ones of them and go on longer missions.
tphuangUSUALL EXPORT PRICES??????
First they asked during 4 days the quadriple of normal price, and now they are still paying double of normal prices!!!!
They are paying more then other countries.
I don’t know but do you live in the Ukraine???
as Chrom said, the Ukrainians were paying less than 25% of the “normal price” paid by everyone else. When they were asked to pay the real “normal price”, everyone goes bananas.
tphuangSo how is a long-range EW radar, which may or may not actually be able to track a Tomahawk at long range as it’s flying extremely low, going to shoot down a cruise missile?
Like all other Chinese long-range EW radar, they are not really tested in any kind of battle situation against a possible barrage of Tomahawk like missiles. And besides, JYL-1 is not the most advanced EW radar that is being exported by China. And even when it gets tracked, I’m not sure what kind of SAMs the Venezuelans have or the level of linking between the EW radars and SAMs. I wouldn’t feel safe if I’m sitting in a Venezuelan barrack with a Tomahawk flying at me.
As for AEW, I could see China offering something like the new Y-8 AEW version (the one with the rotodome head) to Venezuela.
tphuangWhy does the comparable weight of the missiles matter? The Clubs are supposedly able to be carried in threes… one centreline and two under the inner wing points.
The only reason the MOSKIT went nowhere is because its lighter, faster replacement in the form of the Yakhont was developed instead. The Yakhont was then handed to the Indians and a new missile designed from it called Brahmos… which I metioned.
Scuds have been out of Russian production for quite some time now. If they want a Scud class missile then they would be looking at Iskander-E. Similar range and warhead, much much better accuracy, and much smaller and mroe easily concealable.
Hugo Chavez is just replacing his old stock of F-16s with a new aircraft. A natural thing in the real world outside Americas Imperialism. Or did America think they would just decide not to have an airforce anymore because the US wouldn’t sell them anything anymore?
Air Launched versions are available and could easily be sold to Venezuala.
well, you previously mentionned that club missile has been sold under the context of su-30, so my impression was that you are saying air-launched version has been sold. If you want to make a point regarding to the capability of launching from the air. You should be clear.
The reason why Moskit went nowhere is because it’s too freaking heavy. Yes! Why would you want to launch Moskit, when you can carry 6 SLAM-ER for the same payload. I guess you haven’t read about MKI currently can only carry 1 Brahmos? Of course, it will be able to carry 3 in the future. But, again, you can carry at least 8 SLAM-ER for the same payload.
Su-35 is advertized with 5 KH-59MK with 300 Km range. or 3 club or Yakhont (range can easily exceed 300KM). at some point Su-30 will have same capability.
yeah, su-30mk2 is supposedly able to carry KH-59MK.
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