There you go: firstly its states that the Russians are in negotiations with China to have the second contract of 100 RD-93 engines (well, if this is the case, I think its about a 80% chance it would be successful). Then you have a TOTAL of only 200 engines. Which is enough for the PAF orders and as spares.

Look, the Russians claimed 500 extra engines are in the works before. Now, the expected total is down to 100. What do you think is going to happen? I personally think this second order is total bs. How many times have the Russians claimed that China will order x number of certain items and didn’t end up doing so? However, as I said, WS-13A is the engine of future for JF-17, so you shouldn’t use the engine count of RD-93 as the barometer on how many JF-17s there will be.

Plus the first 16 FC-1 units are all for the PAF, if you check recent sources. Its no longer 8 for PLAAF and 8 for PAF. It states clearly that the “Russians HOPE to sell up to 500 engines” is not definite, its a possibility. And the PAF official believes China will buy the FC-1: not that he states clearly that China will buy the FC-1 (whereas its his opinion).

I still doubt that China (both the PLAAF & PLAN) will order the FC-1 in large numbers. The biggest number China could ever order the FC-1 is between 100 to 200.

Why? Firstly China’s defence budget is approx $35.1 bn USD, while US estimates are approx. are around $75 bn to $100 bn USD. With such a big budget plus averages of 15% increase to defence every year, surely China can afford more than 500 J-10A/B and future variants.

I mean the J-10 has been solely funded by the PLAAF (and the Central Govt. as well), its stupid to see the PLAAF & PLAN to order only less than 300 J-10s.

Plus the J-10 represents China’s first indigenous 4th generation multirole fighter, its meant to replace China’s mass 2nd and 3rd generation fighters for decades to come.

Its dumb if China purchases 1000 FC-1s, then till around 2025, China will need to replace them to future J-10 variants or 5th generation fighters. Plus the J-10 is an insurance policy for China, should 5th generation fighters be delay (assuming the F-35 scenario), then the J-10 can be easily upgraded to an appropiate standard to withstand time as a stop-gap, until 5th gen fighters are ready.

FC-1 is going to be exported to some other countries for sure. So, even if plaaf doesn’t make an order on this thing, paf would not be the only one carrying the burden. And honestly, it looks like paf might be going for 250 instead of 150 JF-17s. As for the Chinese market, the low-tech end will be battled out between FC-1 and J-8II. Many people in China are not convinced that FC-1 will offer enough advantage to replace J-8II. The problem is that FC-1 would not be available until 2009 and it has to fight for orders against fighters that are already entrenched in plaaf. On top of that, CAC would rather sell J-10, since it makes more profit on those.

See? You can even answer your own questions. Because KS-172 can do just the same, only upside down.. Being datalinked from fighters that are close enough to get the stealth enemy on radars. While these occupy the attention of F-22 pilot, somewhere 350 kms away a silent long-range Mach 6 missile is being launched towards his aircraft..

A nice theory.. But I don’t see anything else than theories when it comes to F-22.

If those fighters are close enough that they can actually detect F-22, they’d definitely already be detected by F-22. I’m sure F-22 would be firing AMRAAMs at these fighters and they would have to be evading them, which means that they could be shot down or loose the the position info on F-22. Remember, F-22’s job is to stay invisible, get close enough to the opposing fighters to launch the AAMs and then use supercruise to get out of there.

If the opposing fighters are actually close enough to F-22 to get a lock on it, don’t you think it would be better for it to launch all of the R-77s that it has rather than relay the position to something 350 KM away? In that case, F-22’s concern would be the R-77s rather than something launched from 350 KM.

by that logic the long range SAMs which are twice as heavy as AAMs shall also not work against maneouring targets and can be easily deceived so whats the point of having them?

SAM can launch and guide multiple missiles, improve the chance of destroying the target. A fighter would not be able to carry and engage with as many long ranged AAMs.

It is because of F-14 got retired and unless mass produced F-15/F-16 carries them there is no commercial reason for the contractors building them. throughout 90s it was assumed that there will be large number of F-22 procured like 750 and than JSF. so there is not enough concentration on upgrading existing platforms for enhanced role.

I’m saying that if long ranged AAM is that effective (super weapon as you seem to indicate), F-15/F-16 would also be carrying it. If something like KS-172 would improve the combat capability of F-15/F-16 by say 50%, would the Americans not equip F-15/F-16 with that?

they may not have the need to develop it untill this point unless there future rivals have sufficient strenght of airforce just like they didnot develope Brahmos/Krypton like anti-ship missiles. and cost of building new system in west is very expensive proposition.
It is from russian airforce commander.

wow, from a RuAF commander. That really is a neutral point of view.
With the current USN doctrine, harpoon can do the job well enough. But in BVR combat, Americans obviously want to launch the first shot.

As for AMRAAM over 100 KM and the meteor, they are still not huge in weight and size, so they can still maintain the maneuverability and not have huge RCS. You are increasing the effective range without dramatically changing the flight performance of the missile, that’s obviously a good thing. But when you talk about KS-172, it’s 4 times the weight of R-77.

u cannot compare medium range like r-77 with much bigger missiles like R-37/KS-172. bigger missiles have much higher speed, bigger seeker, much better warhead. there is reason for MIG-31 upgrade Ruaf.and they can deal with any thing just like medium range bvr.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28264&highlight=KS-172

yes, but they also don’t turn as well. The larger you are, the less maneuverable you are and also more easily detectable by RWR or MAW. There is a reason why AIM-54 is getting retired. If long range AAM gives such an advantage, don’t you think the Americans would develop something like that?

KS-172 is supposed to be the decisive thing in Su-35 favor. If it works at advertized range (400KM). similar to R-33/37 of MIG-31 which is now claimed to intercept Mach 6 speed. the same is said with Su-34 destroying of incoming missiles. so it looks the same pattern.

What’s the point of having something like KS-172 if you can’t detect F-22 until it’s within the effectiveness range of R-77? Also, KS-172 probably would not be that effective against modern fighters that can pull 9G. I’d like to see KS-172 coming out before saying that it is this super weapon. On a side note, China is also developing a long ranged AAM. I’m guessing it will be similar to KS-172.

I suspect that the 892 may well be a training ship (like the one sold to algeria) rather than a test ship, although it could be possible that the chinese are now looking at the next generation of systems that will follow on from what is in the 052C’s and the soon to be 054A’s.

On that note, does anybody have any information on what stage the 054A procurement is at? it seems to have been going on for ages.

An interesting thought,both the 051C’s and the two sovremennys are now not far from service yet there does not seem to be any further sighns of DDG production, I wonder what is going on???

Rumour is that 892 is used to test out the VLS SAM to be put on 054A.

kanwa claims that the reason for the delay in 054A is due to problem in engine. China apparently got production technology for the engine, but had some trouble assembling it. But then again, kanwa news seems to be getting worse with time, so I’m not sure whether I should believe in the news or not.

As for 051C and sovs, the second sov is actually going to be delayed for a while.

Can anybody confirm the rumours that I am hearing of a new batch of 22XX series stealthy catamaran FAC’s having been spotted under construction?
There is also talk of a new test ship, hull number 892, is this a new build or a reconstruction of the vessel that tested the 052C equipment?

yes, type 22 is under construction in up to 6 different shipyards. They’ve pictured 2 or 3 new type 22 hulls in a shipyard in another province from Shanghai. They’ve counted up to 12 type 22 (including the existing 4) already launched. It’s possible that this type will get in the 3 digit in the next few years.

892 is a new build.

140KM is lock in range not detection range. and it seems to me old figures. as they put 10m for SAR mode.

http://www.niip.info/main.php?page=raz_sky_bars
The fighter’s lock-in range of at least, km:
– at opposite courses 120-140
– at overtaking courses 60
“Air-to-surface” mode
Detection range of at least, km:
– railway bridge 80-120
– tanks 40-50
– torpedo-boat destroyer 120-150
Max resolution capacity, m circa 10

yes, as I mentionned in the post below, the upgraded version in IAF has farther range.