tphuangTwo Y-8 naval variants together!
The Y-8 is becoming the everyplane for the PLAAF/PLANAF.
nice Y-8Elint and Y-8J
tphuangThe Russians give the performance figures of the mig-29K assuming it is taking off from a carrier. The takeoff stats are not for Kuznetsov as the Russians are not oeprating Mig-29Ks on the kuznetsov. For the aircraft they have that operate from carriers they include figures for takeoff weights where carrier takeoff restricts weights. (ie the Flanker class aircraft are basically restricted to 33 tons takeoff, though that is not a problem for the Su-33 as that is its MTOW it is a problem for later two seat strike models that have MTOW of 38 tons.)
The Su-33s normal payload reflects the fact that the Su-33 is a fighter and only has rudimentary air to ground capability. Just like operational Su-27s on land the Su-33 would rarely take off with full fuel and missile loads. For much of the time the Russian AF Su-27s have most of their internal tanks empty.
BTW here is one of the jamming pods it might carry… doesn’t look heavy or high drag:
according to this http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/su33-01.htm
the 30 ton is the maximum take-off weight off carrier and 33 ton is the maximum take-off weight off normal airbase.
I was simply asking about the customary su-33 takeoff for kutznetsov because I remember someone mentionning that it can only takeoff with a very limited set of pods + AAMs off the jetski on kutznetsov. Despite of the fact that su-33 has a 6500kg payload, whether it has a 6500KG from a small carrier with only jet ski would be a different issue. I would think the takeoff weight and landing weight might be even less for a carrier like Gorshov. My original objection was not to the weapons load, but the weapons load + external fuel tank. I think that would be too much.
tphuanghmm, WS-11 is for K-8.
tphuangAs far as I know the two wing mounted external fuel tanks for the Mig are still only about 1200 litres. With an AAM weight of between 200 and 400kgs and the jammer pods not being over 300kgs what do you think a Mig-29K can take off with? The takeoff limits for the mig-29K are given as 4.5 tons. With two 500kg guided bombs I really don’t see any weight problems. If there is a problem then 250kg bombs could be subsituted.
I’m not sure why I’m thinking this way, but there is a maximum takeoff weight and there is another maximum takeoff weight for the specific carrier it is on. I’m not sure what that is for Mig-29K on Gorshov. Can someone enlighten me on the typical weapon load for su-33 on Kutznetsov?
tphuangfew more pics
tphuangthis is interesting, I thought they are going to develop a new plane. If they are resuming manufacturing, that means they are going to produce Y-10 again? Or probably a more upgraded version of Y-10?
tphuangtphuang,
I think you’ve got it the wrong way round:
thanks for pointing it out. That changes it big time!
tphuangmy apologies for what i m writing but it sounds to me like a scaled up version of a jalia wala bagh to me.. as an indian i can never forget jalia wala bagh and the british responsible for it… mayble the chineese are a thousand times more forgiving to forgive the govt for what all happened.
yeah, things are always worse when someone else do it to you I guess. That’s why you see Chinese people still loathing Japanese even to this day. As for TianAnMen Square, only the people who are really passionate about democracy in China still hate the government for it. In general, the two major things that Chinese people are looking for the government to get rid of are corruption and pollution. You would have Americans saying that they are worried about the Chinese public for not being interested in democracy anymore. But then again, why is it up to the rest of the world what Chinese people want? Let Chinese people decide for themselves.
tphuanghmm, I think India probably got into Chinese media a little bit recently with the nuclear deal. In general, Chinese people are more focused on the problem with Taiwan, Japan and US. You saw recently how much anger and resentment exist in China against these parties. Most Chinese people have nothing against Indians. Go check the Chinese forums, you would get the following theories:
1. US is admired, feared, but also despised
2. Taiwanese are misunderstood
3. Japanese are really hated
4. Russians are thought to be ripping off Chinese
To USS, the TianAnMen square incident is misunderstood by many people. The cause of which is known, but very few people in the west really know why it happened the way it did. I remember recently talking to someone from my Christian fellowship who was part of the student demonstration, he basically said the following:
1. there was a group of student looking for change
2. most people just joined for the fun of it
3. there were a lot of average folks plus students involved in the event
4. basically, the troops had the soldiers had the area surrounded in sometimes in May
5. they had military orders to get to the center of Tian An Men square by June 4th to disperse the crowd
6. At height of the demonstration, there probably were 2 or 3 million people gathered in that area
7. by the fateful day, the demonstrators were already quite surrounded. They were given the option to voluntarily disperse or be forced to disperse
8. most of the students dispersed by then, because they knew things might ugly if they don’t
9. most of the people left were the unedcuated ones
10. At about 10 PM, they switched and flashed the light in the square for the last time as a warning “you know, get out now, we are coming in”. Some people hid, but there were still probably 200 to 300 thousand people left in the vicinity.
12. At midnight, one group of soldier came out from one of the buildings in the square, really sort of unexpected, since the students didn’t know that one existed
13. Anyhow, so you had the soldiers trying to force their way in to the Square and the crowd trying to not disperse by forming a human wall
14. So what do the soldiers do, they fire bullets in the air to try to disperse people. I know, they didn’t have riot police back then in China. Training has gotten much better since.
15. Obviously, some bullets came done and hit people. Then, you basically have the people retaliating against the soldiers after they saw people getting hit by bullets. The soldiers didn’t want to kill anyone, but they had to defend for themselves, so they fired back. You have more casualties because of this.
16. And then you had the tank moving in that drove over some people because the soldiers that came out from underground weren’t able to physically remove everyone.
17. And that’s basically it. It wasn’t the fantasy situation portrayed by the government, but it wasn’t the bloodbath mentionned by many western media either.
My friend estimated that probably a few hundred people died. Which is still a lot, but you have to consider that the soldiers weren’t really trained to handle such situation. Considering how many people were in the square at that time, it was inevitable that you would have some deaths.
Another friend of my was still doing primary school at that time in Beijing. He had no idea that this event even went on. That should tell you that there wasn’t this bloodthirsty city wide search for university demonstrators.
Basically, my friend from the fellowship just said that a lot of people just got involved, because they thought it was kind of a fun thing to do (almost like a parade). you get to know a lot of people. They even stopped one of the most important bridges in china by tying themselves on railways or something like that. Yeah, the train stoppped for the people. It was just one of those rebellious times where a lot of people were simply trying to have a little fun. The people who were actually really serious about reforms were a minority out of the demonstrators.
Also, you have to look at the leaders of the demonstrations. All of them other than Wang Dan immediately left China to the States. They earn a living by doing nothing other than trashing the Chinese government. How many people from China do you think are doing the same thing at the refugee claimant office every year? Out of all the leaders from the student demonstration, you basically only have one respectable person in Wang Dan. Who still care about democracy in China even now.
There you go. Believe what you want to believe. You can research on your own and find as much as you need, but I think this is pretty comprehensive.
tphuangThe LCD industry and electronics industry in China is generally much further ahead than the Russians. If you haven’t noticed, China leads the world export in IT products last year. http://www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/3570226
Why would it not use its own LCD and use someone else’s? The continuing insistence that China can’t produce its own MFD is just sad.
tphuangI don’t think Mig-29K can take off with the configuration you are describing. The external fuel tanks better be empty in that configuration.
Actually, Algeria is just cancelling Russian debts in this case. Let’s face it, if they don’t buy these weapons, they might never get that money back.
tphuangTo Johnwoo,
actually the MFDs on FC-1 are 8×12 I think. You can select what each of them should show by the 20 keys I guess. But yeah, you can show anything at any screen. Generally, the Russian cockpits are better than before, but still lacks quite a bit compared to the Western ones. I would say that FC-1 cockpit looks modern, but still not as good as the one on the super hornets and block 60. But then again, that’s just the export version, the domestic version is always better.
As for this entire human right stuff, why don’t you go to China and ask Chinese people how they feel about it? I’m sick of listening to these righteous conservatives saying that China is bad and oppress its people. Yet, it couldn’t care less about the people in the action that it takes. If you ever go to China, you’d see how grateful people are by the opportunity that the government has given them in the last 25 years. I wouldn’t be in Canada today if it wasn’t for the reform policy by the Chinese government. Sure, there are corruption and abuse of power by local official. But then again, which of the developing countries do not have this problem?
tphuangOK so you guys take back the propaganda line …. China has solved all its problems and India hasn’t and I will take my statement back.
Would those be the avionics that PAF refused to accept? Are the problems with the JF-17 the reason that PAF is now interested in buying 75-100 F-16s instead? If you have’t seen it yet, I would suggest that you take a look at the LCA and the MKI’s cockpits. You may like them more.
If you would like to discuss the macro and micro-economic models and indicators of India and China, let me know.
I said a million times, I don’t like to do comparisons between the two countries (read my previous posts). If you want to have that kind of argument, other Chinese will respond. I’m just here to defend China.
Every country has its problem. China and India both do.
As for the avionics, you obviously haven’t been around this forum very much. PAF has said since 2004 that the first 50 JF-17s are using Chinese avionics and radar. And the JF-17s after that are still to be evaluated. Where have you been? Despite the reported F-16 talks, it looks like JF-17 not only will not decrease, but will probably increase to 250 for PAF. I took a look at LCA and JF-17’s cockpit and mki’s cockpit. Make your own judgement which one is more advanced.
JF-17
http://www.war-sky.com/forum/attachment/Day_060225/46_76057_2df0256956f816f.jpg
http://www.war-sky.com/forum/attachment/Day_060225/46_73854_365297b395222ca.jpg
LCA PV-2
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/images/IB-TejasCockpit.jpg
MKI
http://spacetrans.tripod.com/thumbs/su30mkicockpit1_t.jpg
http://spacetrans.tripod.com/pix/su30mkicockpit2.jpg
As for the stuff about J-10, Musharraf in the recent days has repeatedly said great things about J-10 and gave every indication that J-10 will be purchased regardless of the outcome of F-16. At the same press conference, he also said that none of the F-16s are off limit for PAF. Even block 60 can be cleared. Maybe it would help if some people on this board actually kept track of what is going on?
tphuangVick, where to start?
I think you read too much American propoganda that China is this place where no one is allowed to talk. Go visit some Chinese forums. Go to China sometimes. You will realize that’s exactly what it is. American propoganda to spread this China threat stuff. Don’t bring Taiwan and Uighur into this. Don’t forget you have your own issues inside your country like the constant struggle with Pakistan over the iceberg. I don’t know enough about that situation. Similary, you don’t know enough about the situations in China to comment about it either.
Recently, China has managed to export MA-60 to other countries’ civilian airline. It co-produces ERJ-145 with Embraer. It has its own ARJ-21 regional jet that is set to be certified in the end of this decade. It has produced Y-10 in the past and is working on 150-200 seat airplane for 2015. It probably will get a lot of experience in this from the A320 assembly line. If you know a lot about India’s aero industry in this area, please list them. Yeah, and I do know about Indian companies getting contracts from Boeing and Airbus. Chinese companies do too.
don’t bring mkk into this. China has no part in the design of mkk. What does mkk have anything to do with China’s aviation industry? as for mkk avionics, China doesn’t want the Russian avionics either. What gives you the impression that China wants mki’s avionics? Have you seen the cockpit of JF-17? That’s what China’s exporting. Should give you an idea of what it is not exporting.
tphuangthere is no indication that in the current configuration, the hard points on JF-17 will even be able to fire the American munitions. I remember reading a while back that J-10 couldn’t even fire Russian munitions, and it wasn’t just a radar issue. Anyhow, you can show your source on the F-16 airframes. If anything, it looks like PAF is just going with F-16A and upgrading them now. Do you realize that Musharraf was just on Pakistan TV, but did not give any indication that block 50 will be bought? In fact, he seemed to voice a lot more support for J-10, which you seemed to hate so much
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