JH-7A is a nice bomb truck. It’s uses all domestic part, it’s cheap to produce and it does what PLA needs it to do very well. It’s also quite versatile. It can do long range strike missions, low altitude penetration and SEAD missions. They are also using it for EW missions like what USN is doing with super hornets.

Until J-11BS gains a foothold in PLAAF, JH-7A will continued to be purchased.

Chinese J-15 carrier aircraft with Russian-made Su-33 technology

China’s Shenyang Aircraft Corporation to successfully produce the F -15 carrier aircraft, the Russian media said the Chinese people from the Ukraine through the purchase of Russian Su -33 decryption technology.

Russia’s Interfax News Agency quoted in May published “Chinese Defense Review” reported that the Shenyang Aircraft Company successfully produced copies of SU -33 and carrier aircraft named J-15.

Itar-Tass reported, although Moscow refused to sell to China, the Soviet Union to prevent the leakage of -33, but China still buy through the Ukraine and Soviet -33 to imitation. Based primarily on the Chinese fighter from the Soviet Union era T10K, it was purchased from Ukraine. Chinese engineers had solved the problem of carrier-based aircraft wing folding now been resolved. But as yet not clear whether the new aircraft built its first flight. J-15 after the factory test will be sent to the Air Force base. This is because the Chinese navy has not yet own aviation test center.

Reported that Russia had sold China to enter the Chinese market, Su-27SK, but then appeared in the Chinese J-11 and conduct a series of production. Russian experts are concerned that China may be crowding out the Russian market from a third party. China is now producing the J-10, J-11 and FC-1 imitation of a Russian Su and MiG -29 -27/30. The future, China may produce and market than Russia, “original” cheaper fighters, at least 1200.

Source: http://www.global-military.com/chinese-j-15-carrier-aircraft-with-russian-made-su-33-technology.html

Russia did not refuse to sell su-33 to China. China wanted to purchase a small number and Russia wanted to sell more because it would otherwise be unprofitable to reopen the production line.

That imitation part doesn’t even make sense. J-10 and FC-1 aren’t related to the Russians. J-11 isn’t getting export at all. There is no evidence for it other than some paranoid sukhoi officials.

well, I think Crobato’s post on SDF was really good on this, so I will just repost it.

To begin with, we need to clarify how the Sukhoi organization works. Its not like Boeing or Lockheed.

Sukhoi, and so is MiG, are design bureaus. This means they’re a company whose main product is brain work. If you’re familiar with Silicon Valley, many companies are this way. IP companies with no manufacturing.

Within Sukhoi’s orbit are a number of large satellite companies that actually do the manufacture of their products. The big three is NAPO, KnAAPO and Irkut. These companies are independent from Sukhoi; independent and yes, with self serving goals for themselves too. These firms even compete with each other on the market. Sukhoi licenses the designs for them to make:

NAPO does the Su-34 type

KnAAPO does the Su-27 single seaters along with variants thereof, such as Su-35, and Su-33 carrier jets.

Irkut does the Su-27 double seaters along with variants thereof, aka Su-30MKI. Note how NAPO, KnAAPO and Irkut are forking off their own Flanker variants, to the point that these variants compete against each other, Irkut’s Su-30MK vs. KnAAPO’s Su-35. KnAAPO has gone to the point of hatching their own double seaters – Su-30MKK and the double seater Su-35.

So, Shenyang AC licenses the design from Sukhoi itself, but to get the single seater kits, they have to have a separate deal with KnAAPO. And to get the double seater kits, they have to make another deal with Irkut.

For the parts themselves, China has to deal with other manufacturers separately, Salyut and Saturn for engines, NIIP for the radar and so on.

Note: if China licenses the Su-27 design, it does not mean they have licensed the radar, the engines, the opto-mechanical sight and so on and on. So China has to purchase these separately on separate contracts until China can fill in the blanks with domestic IP equivalents.

If this is a license, China pays Sukhoi a fee for every J-11B made. Even if the plane is 100% Chinese parts. That’s not the problem. The problem is that the Russians think they make better money selling their own home grown and made variety. I believe Sukhoi may get a commission cut from the Russian parts contractors themselves from Chinese deals related to the J-11. Nothing bad about that. That’s just business. So if China, lets say, buy engines from Salyut for the J-11, Sukhoi gets a cut. Of course, if China buys engines from Salyut for the J-10, Sukhoi doesn’t. That’s why the engine contracts are always separate, specific to the plane, and may not have the same unit price.

The Russians also do not understand the global IP business, coming from their Communist background. That’s why they went around trying to sue countries for the AK-47 “patents”. Which as you know, didn’t hold. When their defense industries were at the brink and desperate for money, you can understand why they would patent troll.

The Chinese side is this: they believed that the J-11 deal is like the Harbin Z-8 deal, which they always hold as the model for licenses. They will take the basic design and modify for their own use, substituting domestic parts if needed and use foreign parts if necessary. The licensor gets a cut for every unit made. The Chinese have been mentioning the Z-8 model for a long time.

now, to our lovely friend who seems to do nothing but repost Russian shouts.

see what RIA Novosti has to say
Several years ago, Beijing bought a license to assemble 200 Su-27SK fighters at the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation. But China suspended the contract after producing just 105 aircraft.

that’s not happened. Since as I explained, they are still delivering the parts as per the contract. So obviously, China has paid for the ToT and all the parts as per original contract. Why else would Russia still be delivering the parts of the contract for the remaining 95 aircraft?

here they explain why the J-11B is an illegal product

China has not signed a copyright agreement with Russia and is producing the J-11B aircraft, effectively a carbon copy of the Su-27SK Flanker. Beijing even exports the plane to Pakistan without getting a permit from Sukhoi, which holds the patent for the Su planes, or paying royalties to it.

that’s clearly false since China has shown no intention to export it. And China has already paid for 200 copies.

China said we do not want more J-11s
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080527/108566309.html

They don’t want to build according to the original su-27sk configuration. And how can you blame them, it stinks.

now see what else they say
Russian Defense Ministry sources confirmed that the refusal was due to findings that China had produced its own copycat version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.

later they say
In 1995, China secured a $2.5-billion production license from Russia to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed J-11A, at the Shenyang Aircraft Corp.

The deal required the aircraft to be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. Russia cancelled the arrangement in 2006 after it discovered that China was developing an indigenous version, J-11B, with Chinese avionics and systems. The decision came after China had already produced 95 aircraft.

so different Russians news sources claimed at different point in 2004, 2006 and 2008 that China or Russia canceled the contract. Can they even be consistent? One says China and canceled, the other says Russia. They can’t agree on the year. Need I say more.

And more importantly, the Russians are still delivering parts to China even now as per original contract.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090310/120493194.html
Now if you do not like RIA Novosti

we have more from others

Russia is trying to protect the technology from the “pirates”

After the incident with J-11, copying the Russian Su-27SK, Russia has officially notified China that the production of copies of fighters is a violation of international agreements and pledged to begin legal procedures to protect intellectual property.
In March of this year, Russian Ministry of Justice has finalized amendments to the Law on Military-Technical Cooperation of the Russian Federation with foreign states “, which aims to other states in the sphere of military-technical cooperation (MTC) was added and the protection of intellectual property to sell weapons.
http://www.newsru.com/world/04jun2010/kopija.html

if Russia really believes that China is violating the contract, take it up in arbitration with China. But has it done any of that other than having sukhoi complaining in a bunch of articles? No.

see now Lenta

The fate of the popular Russian small arms is not the sort of special exception. This is just the most glaring example. Copying, direct theft of technical solutions, in violation of all norms to thrive in the global arms market. What is the story of the creation of Chinese engineers “their” J-11 aircraft. In 1995, Beijing has concluded with Moscow an agreement on the licensed assembly of 200 Su-27SK. After receiving about 100 kits for assembly, the Chinese side from the other refused, firing under the name J-11 is practically a copy of the Russian fighter. And the new product was offered to the world market, making competition “parents”. China has generally set copying equipment into the stream.
http://www.lenta.ru/articles/2009/05/01/kalash/

again, there is no evidence China is offering J-11 to any country. It only unveiled it to the public last year in the 60th year national pride parade. They can’t produce enough J-11 for pla, what makes you think they will export?

China was given the design plans for the Russian fighter jet in 1995, when it promised to buy 200 kits and assemble them domestically. After building 100 planes, the Chinese said the Russian plane did not meet specifications, only for a copycat version soon to appear – “Made in China” – without copyright
http://rt.com/Top_News/2010-04-20/ru…html?fullstory

they bought the design, the tools needed, they sourced the parts from the Russians. They had the right under original agreement to source domestic parts. They are doing that. Because su-27sk specifications stink.

Russia actually offered upgrade package along the line of su-27SM (but downgraded for export purposes obviously) and China would not expect it, because it stinks.

Defense analysts across a broad spectrum are claiming that China is exporting the J-11s to Pakistan. This chagrins many in the Bharati defense establishment because the J-11 is a very modern fighter comparable to the Sukho Su-27Sk. The head of the Chinese Air Force and the Defense Minster of China are in Pakistan right now and the Foreign Minister is arriving a weeks time.
http://rupeenews.com/2008/04/22/chin…-for-pakistan/

again, you’ve posted multiple copies of the same news that has no basis.

China shamelessly steals fighter jet technology from Russia

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/…-fighter_jet-0

BANGALORE, India – After years of denial, a Russian defense official conceded that China had produced its own “fake” version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.

“We are in discussions with China on this issue,” said Mikhail Pogosyan, first vice president on program coordination, Russian Aircraft Corp., during a press conference here at the Aero India trade show.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3947599

it’s not fake, it’s local version and they are still legal under original agreement.

so have you read the original contract? or is this like your claim that the Russian’s are allowing this as part of the ToT, yet have no concrete proof of such statements being made..

I haven’t read the original contract, but all the reliable PLA sources are saying that Russia is only China to indigenize the plane. That’s part of the agreement that China will eventually produce the planes by itself.

You can see that the Indians are trying to do the same thing with MKI by producing more and more of it by itself.

No there is not but there are plenty of russian sources even in English that say the opposite.
China was given the design plans for the Russian fighter jet in 1995, when it promised to buy 200 kits and assemble them domestically. After building 100 planes, the Chinese said the Russian plane did not meet specifications, only for a copycat version soon to appear – “Made in China” – without copyright.

The threat from China is real, and it will be difficult for the Russian aviation industry to maintain its lofty position, and soar further unless it manages to better protect its intellectual rights and also find new ways of co-operating with its eastern neighbor.

Although it made its maiden flight over 30 years ago, the Su-27 remains the bedrock of the Russian air force, and is highly popular abroad.

“I don’t think anyone who’s flown on the SU-27 can ask for a different plane, unless we are talking about a new generation jet,” believes Lt. Colonel Andrey Alekseyev, Air Force Pilot. “It’s maneuverable and has a huge range.”

Some are calling for calm over the controversy. While the similarities between the two planes are clear, experts say the Chinese J11B does not have the latest Russian high-tech features and will be no match for it on the international market.

The best way to fight copyright violations is to be technologically ahead of your rivals, claims Maksim Pyadushkin from the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technology. “The biggest problem for Russia is that it has been living off the legacy of the Soviet Union, and soon its technology may no longer be the world leader,” he asserts.

Rather than a continuing dogfight over the copycat plane, it is possible that Russia and China may yet settle the matter amicably – at the highest political level.

But in the shady world of international weapons copyright, similar cases are sure to follow

http://rt.com/Top_News/2010-04-20/russian-arms-copycat-china.html

yeah, Russians news shouldn’t be taken as solid sources. They are generally very biased only repeating what the Russian industries are saying. And worst of all, they get a lot of the most basic facts wrong. For example
1) we were told about TVC with AL-31FN sold to China, that turned out to be complete nonsense
2) we were told about Russia upgrading J-10 use their electronics + TVC to get super-10, that’s nonsense too
3) we were told China was going to buy su-33s, that wasn’t true. In fact, different Russian news articles come up with different theories on it all the time.
4) we were told China was buying Zubr, but China actually bought it from Ukraine
5) we were told about Mi-171 production in China, but that never happened.
6) we have a host of articles regarding the IL-76 contract that are wrong and in some cases contradicting

In most cases, the articles regarding J-11B and su-33 are overly emotional, angry and not well researched or based on evidences.

i think the chinese do have some original designs, the JH-7 is i think totally domestic at least in airframe, others have bits a pieces of other aircraft but in general they have their own originality.

In Mexico we still need to fly a single helicopter like the Z-9 or jet like the ERJ-145, so i do not think they do anything wrong by flying aircraft that were not originally designed in China, in General terms the Chinese have gotten a good level and they are quit impressive with their J-10, Z-10 or J-8II and domestic jet engines.

What is probably the only thing to say is the J-11B shows basicly the bad sides of the Chinese technology transfers.

In many ways we are going to do something similar in Mexico, we are probably going to fly a Learjet or MD helicopter totally built in Mexico but i do not think we are going to say it is an original mexican design niether sell it like ours and it is probably that in 10-20 years Mexico will get the technology to build an entire jet engine since we already have some experience and we are building in partnership low pressure turbines.

China has a good policy to in terms of building an aircraft industry but they lack a good policy in terms of protection of the intellectual property.

dude, I think you have good intentions but you are not too well researched on this topic. I don’t think anyone has problem with Mexico. It’s great that Mexicans are building up its domestic industry.

Now as for J-11B, I think it has been established on this forum that the Chinese posters (such as myself) believe that China is not breaking the main crux of the ToT agreement, because they are allowed to achieve complete local production of the J-11B parts under the original contract and that they have not finished producing the original 200 flankers. Now, the Russians newspapers and Military industry have been aggressively spreading their beliefs that China is stealing. So most people that read these articles simply take their side, because China has not offered any official rebuttals on this issue. But the gist is that nobody hear has read the original contract, so whether or not China is allowed modify the aircraft the way they have is more an issue of personal bias.

The question I have is does the domestic WS-10A have the punch to get the J-11H/J-15 off a ski jump comfortably. Another thing is its fairly well known that China has experimented with steam catapults (apparently stripped) from HMAS Melbourne and its certainly a technology they are capable of replicating and offers some advantages in relation to airgroup operations, I could see an indiginous carrier being fitted with steam catapults.

FWS-10 is suppose to have more thrust than AL-31F, but they are not completely comfortable with it, so a version is being developed just for the naval flankers. I think catapult is being planned for indigenous carriers, but that remains to be seen.

They got a lot of help with that T-10K prototype. They also got a Su-25UTG off the Ukrainians according to Kanwa. The domestic naval flanker J-11H is very close to first flight if it hasn’t flied yet. I think they are aiming it to be ready for service somewhere around 2015 when Varyag becomes officially commisioned into service. Of course, having real carrier op experience will take much longer

Until then, J-11H will first do some testing in SAC, before being handed to CFTE or naval aircraft testing facility. And then China’s first batch of naval pilots will be testing either at NITKA or some domestic facility, probably NITKA.