J-10 dosnt use a PESA right now, it uses a mechanically scanned array. It also dosnt use TVC right now, bith these are being worked on but there is no evidence that they have flown yet. The TVC is a direct purchase from Russia so it isnt even chinese.
Some 300 AL-31FN variants have been ordered, thats enough to keep the J-10 production line going until 2010 if the chinese maintain a J-10 output of 5 a month.

you have no evidence that it’s not using PESA radar. You are just assuming that it still uses a slotted array one. Let’s just say that the Chinese AESA development is a lot further ahead than what some people in thread thinks. I will leave it as that.

As for TVC, the latest AL-31FN are equipped with 3D TVC. The first 2 of the 3 batches of these engines are already sent to China, the final batch arrives in the 3rd quarter of this year. The original 54 were used up last year, that’s why they had to make the recent 100 purchase. If that 100 delivered engine are really the FM1 standard that the Russians are saying, then the most recent 50 J-10s should be using FM1. As for modification to J-10, no one outside CAC knows exactly what kind of modifications will be made. I’m sure CAC had been testing out TVC engine of J-10 prototype for a few years. Remember, it was first promoted to China in 2000 Zhuhai airshow I think. Also, the indigenous TVC program is also in the works. We saw a 2D TVC nozzle called “Axen” coming out in 2003. That’s supposedly going to be integrated with WS-10 series and should be ready by the time they are putting WS-10 on J-10.

As I said, no such thing as 300 AL-31FNs being ordered. It may happen. Do a simple math. In the next 4 years, there will like be 250-300 J-10s produced after the current 100 31s are used up. You probably need about 250 spares for the newly produced and existing J-10s and another 300 for new airframes. That’s 550 AL-31FNs. I have no doubt more AL-31FNs will be imported, because WS-10’s production definitely can’t handle that.

let’s face it, any JF-17 that Bangladesh is going to get is one of those cheap, really downgraded versions, probably won’t have redunduncy in FBW and won’t have the all modern cockpit and will be restricted to a downgraded radar. That kind of JF-17 vs mig-29 would be a huge mismatch.

the engine that russia provides are already at rock bottom prices. u cannot go lower than this for modern turbo fan engine with fadec. because they developed every thing during soviet times and have vast experiance. and it willl take untill 2010 just to consume those RD series engine. u need another series of flight tests just to put another engine in it. so its very long way to go to put another engine in this. offcourse FC-1 can be downgraded but where will be the market for this. that market will be taken by J-7. PAF Miragesa are already equiped with F-16MLU standard radar and 2 MFD with PGM capability. so it is not bad either.

That’s what the Chinese websites are saying, in fact less than 1 million per WS-10A engine. Everything is cheaper in China. You should know that by now. Actually, the RD-93 engines are going to be delivered by 2009. WS-13A should be certified in 3 years time. And remember, Russia would not let FC-1 exported to any country that Mig-29 is also in competition for as long as FC-1 is using RD-93. Anyhow, if you still think FC-1 is going to use RD-93 for export rather than WS-13, there is no point in expanding this argument anymore.

all i gotta say is dont believe everything u hear n read on the net bro…..super-7 started way bac in 1982….this project has had 3 different designation in PAF super-7, FC-1 n JF…..feasibility was done on half of PAF by grumman…look it up…..

It’s a feasibility study, big deal.

What do you think super-7 project is? basically making J-7 better. Of course you can get one of CAC’s J-7 improvement projects and say that it started earlier. Even the super-7 project back then is not the same JF-17 project right now. CAC used a lot of the research from J-9 project on J-10. Does that mean J-10 is the same project as J-9? Obviously not. Do you have an idea of how many projects CAC has ongoing to improve its design capability and such? And what was your point originially with super-7 starting in 1982? That China took this project seriously? I showed you that this project is to just develop a fighter that CAC can make money on. J-10 has PLA and CAC’s top priority right from the start, JF-17 is a secondary project for CAC. It was designed to be a cheap export item. If China actually put in a huge order, CAC would not change the design to satisfy Pakistan. What country would let another country change the specs of its primary fighter?

no links…thats what china asked for….

having your dad as at the top of the weapons chain helps you know alot…

according to the claims by china on the net….its a tested weapons…then how can a test fire cost 10million….give 10 million to NDC/AWC in pakistan and i bet they`ll give you a decent BVRM…..

thing is….china is paks best frnd…..it also chagres $$500 for a chip you get in the market for $$ 5.0….and since every contract is a binded contract so PAF cant reject the prices….

as for J-10 being a bargining chip with the US over teh F-16s….i dont think sooo….PAF command is too pro-US wen it comes ot jets….remember this project ( JF-17, FC-1, Super-7, the different designation of hte program) was initiated by the PAF in the early 1980z…F-16s came and killed the project in the PAF…….chances are if PAF gets something around 100 to 150 more F-16C/D black 50/52/60 with AMRAAMs…JF mite jsut go back to a fleet of 50 to 100 untill the mirages n F-7P/PG ( called MG) are phased out ( who btw still have atleast 10 to 15 yrs before theya re pulled from service, specially mirages II/V with ROSE I/II upgrades n F-7PGs)…

lol, another person that claims to be an insider. Haven’t we had enough of such claims already? If you think Pakistan can develop your own missile with $10 million or a fighter with $250 million, go ahead, produce your own stuff. China never wanted JF-17 anyways.

I dont know what kind of aircraft zimbabewe was offered.
but the aircraft sold in Africa cannot be sold in Middleast or elsewhere. i have read old report Pak invited two other countries to join this project but they werent interested. u cannot sell medium tech aircraft in 21st century. It should be either high tech or low tech. high tech means fully automated aircraft with minimum work load on pilot and ground crews and ability to have wide variety of stand off weopons , full protection ew suite and netcentric ability. and PAF officials has stated this aircraft will get continous upgrades like F-16 blocks. i think they are willing to spend what ever it takes.
so i would not be surprized that JF-17 gets increased thrust engine, CFT, increase MTOW, AESA, composites etc in near future. so u have to factor this continous R&D costs on PAF along with buying machines, training people to build and maintain and even building weopons for it. so the scale of program is much bigger than it is reported. so u cannot put single cost figure.

interesting, so now you are including the experience factor in it as part of the cost, but that should be added as additional benefits for JF-17. Anyhow, if you wish to add upgrade cost as part of the JF-17 program, you’d have to do the same for the F-16s. And the MLU program definitely cost more than any possible Chinese upgrades. As for the upgrades, CAC has already planned them out, they just haven’t showed them yet. As long as Pakistan is willing to fork the money, CAC will put them on.

JF-17 can be downgraded, trust me on this. It can get downgraded to the point where it will just have a superior airframe to J-7 with a bigger nose and can fire SD-10. So, if you think it can’t be exported as a low tech item, you are dead wrong here.

If the PAC line is going to be better than the one that is set up at CAC, it will only be because CAC is putting a half-assed effort into it. Since CAC hasn’t set up a production line for JF-17 yet, it’s a huge assumption to think that PAC will have a better line than CAC. Remember that China has been importing precision tools from the West for years, so that it can meet the standards for export parts to Boeing and Airbus. Sukhoi admitted that J-11s are built at better workmanship and quality than the ones from Knaapo. Let’s just say, SAC generally doesn’t build things at the level of CAC. J-7 and especially J-10 are both said to have much better lines than J-11. JF-17 will most likely inherit some of the experienced workers from old J-7 lines. I think I will just leave it as that, you can make your own judgement.

Ok superb, good post and on topic. I have a few questions about a few points raised by you

What is the Chinese capacity to export the above mentioned products while satisfying the requirements of the armed forces. The FC-1 was always intended for export and in any event Pakistan has an assembly plant, but i am talking about the future prospects such as the J-10. Will China have capacity to export the J-10 to multiple countries while satisfying its own air force?
The same question holds for the heli prospects as well… Would China simply send ready made kits to third countries or full tech transfers. I dont want to waste time talking about MiG-21 clones, i am more interested in future prospects for export and how it would work in China….

I see plaaf producing a minimum of 200 FC-1s to appease the Pakistanis and justify setting up a separate production line. However, I would guess that China is looking to export most of the FC-1 that it produces. As for J-10, the production rate for it is actually quite high right now. Most of the components of J-10 have really fairly high rate of production. I’ve talked about 70-75 J-10s per year in the past. The bottleneck is the engine. I don’t think China will export it until the WS-10 production level reaches a certain point that it can satisfy all the exports. Let’s face it, the Russians won’t want AL-31 equipped J-10s to threaten its exports. When will that happen? I guess 2009-2010? I guess that would mean that China can theoretically sign export deals for J-10 as early as 2007.

As for helicopter, it looks like Z-9 and Z-11 are the only ones that will be exported. Also, a lot of these helicopters that are exported are civilian models. Z-10 won’t be exported for a long time, because it is badly needed in pla. Once Z-10 gets naval versions, that version will probably be exported.