tphuangRubbish.. OVT is Russian term for TVC.. Nothing more.. You need to add a good dozen million dollars to make OVT a MiG-35, mate..
In your opinion, what exactly makes the F-15C decisively superior to the new MiG-29s like M2 or SMT-II?
much better avionics, much better radar, better operation range, better missiles, higher operation ceiling. Need I list more?
tphuangSeriously, why does discussions like this always have to turn into my country is better than yours?
This is strictly between su-30mk2 and mig-29k. No need to include olympics or flying hours in here.
As for as I’m concerned. Mig-29k probably has slightly more advanced radar and avionics than su-30mk2. It’s payload and fuel is obviously a concern due to its status as a carrier fighter. Obviously, mk2 would be far better for attacking missions and anti-shipping missions and such. Mig-29k could potentially be better A2A fighter due to its lighter load (better manuvering and such).
tphuangthe MiG29SMT would be about the same as the F15c in terms of capability though it would be the MiG29M2(MiG35) that would be able to easily take the Eagle!how did indian airforce fulcrums fare against the F15c in cope india!?
mig-29m2 is not mig-35. Mig-29ovt is. Where in the world did you get the idea Mig-29ovt can against f-15C? Mig-29 should really be compared against F-16s and it would still get its butt whipped.
tphuangOk got it. The MiG-29K has some advantges, one is its size, smalle, more agile than the large SU-30 However the qualty of the pilots is an important factors to consider when comparing both planes. They were many examples of high tech planes which got a beating even faced with inferior design.
This website provide some info on the Chinese SU-30MKK2:
MirageIII, I don’t think you are aware of the flying ours of the Chinese pilots. According to Kanwa, the pilots that fly flankers and J-10 in China are considered to be elite pilots, so they fly 200 or more hours per year. Whereas J-7 pilots probably do fly under 150 hours.
tphuangthe 404 is a late 1970s technology engine, though GE is bringing out a new incarnation using elements of 414 named IN20 for india. so it wont be anywhere leading edge in fuel consumption.
realistically speaking, that’s how far the Russians are behind the Americans in turobfan engine development. I would be very surprised if RD-33 series has better fuel efficiency than F404
tphuangIt’s assembled in Shengyang China
Obviously it should cost more than the J-10 being the J-11 has 2 engines and some composite material. The russian also made a cut in the price in royalties…
I would think J-10 would be using more composite material than J-11. However, J-11 would be more expensive due to its larger size and one extra engine. I guess the Russian royalty is probably where the biggest difference comes in. I’m guessing the real cost for J-11Bis probably even more than 30 million, maybe even 35.
tphuangyj-83 terminal speed is listed at 1.5 mach which is not very fast (Klub is supposed to be around mach 3+) and the missile itself doesnt make sense to me it doesnt have 3rd solid fueled stage for that like Klub so its kinda puzzling how it is supposed to be supersonic in terminal stage. Either way yj-62 looks like it has turbojet from that photo why would the engine and design change if that photo is legit.
I think YJ-62 probably uses turbojet engine (at least that’s what mentionned in that Aviation weekly article). Either way, the exact terminal speed of YJ-62 and range of domestic version is not revealed anywhere. I would think it should be at least mach1.5.
tphuangits weight is less because its subsonic definetly not supersonic it uses TJ engine based on that one photo.
YJ-83 is supersonic in the terminal phase despite being supersonic and weighing even less than YJ-62. And also, that one photo proves nothing.
I remember that Kanwa mentionning YJ-12 on 052C to be supersonic. Somehow, YJ-12 suddenly just disappeared and YJ-62 became the missile on 052C. I’m not sure if they are the same.
tphuangFor starters you could atleast put a reason why you think its better rather just say its better, by that you could mean its better looking, better in terms of range, better because its indigenous etc. And second of all club hasnt entered service yet to my knowledge and its currently limited to the kilo so dont exactly know the point of comparing the two.
I would say greater range, equal in warhead (despite being much less in weight, that’s never a bad thing).
Other than that, there is not much I can compare between the two, since the radar guidance info of enhanced sunburn is not available and the exact speed of YJ-62 is not either.
China, has received the Club already according to Kanwa. It is limited to subs, but that doesn’t mean it cannot be compared.
Not sure if this article is accurate.
http://www.kanwa.com/free/2003/10/e1015a.htm
tphuangbelieve the new sov’s carry the VDS? as for chinese tas i havent seen any evidence these vessels have that looking at the design unless you have any evidence to the contrary. Also it doesnt make sense for them to have TAS considering 051C doesnt even a hanger for ASW helo’s. As for china having better ashm than moskit what are you talking about..
I believe the first Chinese DDG to carry VDS was 052. As for TAS, it’s not really stated anywhere what the latest DDgs are carrying. I like to use Richard Fisher’s article http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.60/pub_detail.asp
“And looking to the future, the PLA is also investing in new advanced ship-based sonar anti-submarine warfare (ASW) systems. These include modern towed-array sonar, which consist of hundreds of transducers embedded in a flexible tube, technology the U.S. has perfected for prosecuting deep-sea submarines.”
Again, I’m not sure how many DDGs or FFGs are using this. I think 054 is. So, I will take back the stuff about all the latest DDGs using it.
I’d say YJ-62 is better than the enhanced Moskit.
I’d rank the Chinese AShM as:
YJ-62
enhanced Moskit
Club
Yj-83
Moskit
tphuangRussia has an own merchant shipbuilding capacity too. It’s not because you don’t hear from it that it’s non-existant! Russia is more specialised in special ships, Ice-class tankers and stuff. They don’t have that many ice free shipbuilding facilities and that is what limits their shipbuilding more than anything else.
China has only now built its first LNG carrier (and which what degree of success we don’t know yet), and is not at all looked at when it comes to more advanced types of ships (Japan and South Korea are still favored for that). Western companies basically send a team of 8 engineers to Chinese yards to see to it that they build the right ship with the right equipment.
It might have improved a bit after the non-watertight non-fitting doors in the Thai ships, but that is probably just by experience (which is a normal thing after all).
Building many military ships in your own yards is a very bad idea as the shipbuilders hardly get any profit out of that, sometimes they even pay parts themselves. On the other hand if you keep their slipways open to much more profitable commercial ships and buy foreign military ships it’s much better for your economy. Also take in account that not all yards are capable of constructing submarines and certain types of ships. This adds to the arguments to buy the Russian Kilos, they build them quick, cheap and your yards aren’t disturbed.
I was talking about the workmanship. You maybe capable of building more advanced ship, but the workmanship level is not necesarily higher. China is getting the orders, because the ships are coming out in good quality and such. That’s what I was saying all along.
To give you an idea of the cost of these ships including development:
052B 300 million each
051C 750 million each
052C 900 million each
956em 700 million each
As for the new Sov compared to other Chinese DDGs, I’d put it slightly ahead of 052B and way behind 052C. 051C’s entire configuration hasn’t come out yet, but I would say it has to be more advanced. You are not right in saying that the sonar and ASW on 956EM is better. Its weak ASW capability actually one of the limiting factors on 956. All the recent Chinese DDGs should be at least equipped with Towed Array sonar. Moskit is not the most capable AShM in PLAN, so I don’t think it’s such a loss not having it on other ships. I don’t really see how Sov is so multipurposed.
tphuangtph, with all the data we can get via the public mass-media (meaning close to nothing), how can you tell chinese products are better then russian?
There are plenty of data you can get from the mass media. Just take a look at the commercial ships coming out of the Chinese and the Russian shipyards (oh wait, that doesn’t exist). Look, if China’s shipbuilding quality isn’t up to par, it would not have the 3rd largest shipbuilding industry (closing into first) in the world. A recent Kanwa article stated that the workmanship on the 052 series was much better than the ships built in the Russian and Indian shipyards and close to the quality of the South Korean shipyards. It’s the same with aircrafts. Sukhoi even admitted J-11 had better finishing than su-27.
To vario, Kanwa interviews a lot of Russians, so they promote their own products (obviously). Therefore, the Russian products all sound great on paper. That’s the problem.
tphuangWhat a disappointment! I still remember several years ago how Kanwa depicted the new super dupa Sov and China would buy many Russian naval systems, Slava, FAC etc…
What’s the disappointment? China should be buying less and less Russian products in general. I can see that China might buy the Ukrina or two more Sov, but that would only be because JN is moving, so the 052 series is put on hold for now. In the best of the world, I’d like PLAN to just stick with ships built in the Chinese shipyards, because the Chinese shipyards just build much better ships than the Russian ones. The fire incident with 139 is just another reason why China needs to stay away from Russian ships.
tphuangwhat are you saying mr-90s are different? 6 orekh FCR were present in the older sovremenny as well.
I must have been mistaken then.
tphuangHow? the radar is the same…
Maybe a more modernized C3 but basically the same boat as the two before only with longer ranged moskit and upgraded CIWS.
They are about the same, but the quality has supposedly be improved according to kanwa. The fire control system is changed. I believe they have 6 MR-90 radar for Shtil now. I think they had less before.
According to Kanwa, 956EM uses Kashtan rather than kashtan-M.
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