tphuangNot at all, the only changes that were made are the removal of the 130mm gun and AK-630s. Instead of the main gun, the telescopic hangar was changed to a permanent (longer) one, this made the flight deck move a bit towards the stern too. The two Kashtan modules are placed where the aft AK-630s were placed and the main guidance radar for them is on top of the hangar roof.
there is actually quite a bit of changes I think, but more related to sensors and comand structure.
tphuangPLAN vessel numbers in end of 2005
Destroyers (DDG)
2 x Type 052C Luyang II class
2 x Type 052B Luyang class
2 x Type 956 Sovremenny class
1 x Type 956EM Sovremenny class
1 x Type 051B Luhai class
2 x Type 052 Luhu class
16 x Type 051/G Luda classTOTAL DDG = 24
Frigates (FFG)
2 x Type 054 Jiangkai class
14 x Type 053H3 Jiangwei I/II/III class
32 x Type 053 Jianghu I/III/V classTOTAL FFG = 48
Conventional Submarines (SSK)
2 to 3 x Type 041 Yuan class
2 x Type 877EKM Kilo class
2 x Type 636 Kilo class
2 x Type 636M Kilo class
Between 10 to 14 x Type 039/G Song class
17 x Type 035E/F Ming classTOTAL SSK = Up to 40
Nuclear Submarines (SSN)
1 or 2 Type 093 class
5 Type 091 Han classNuclear Submarines (SSBN)
1 Type 094 class
1 Type 092 classTOTAL SSN & SSBN = Up to 9
Under Development (Acknowledged)
1 x Aircraft Carrier (Vargay)?
2 x Type 051C class DDG
1 x Type 956EM Sovremenny class DDG
1 x Type 054A class FFG (or more?)
6 x Type 636M Kilo class SSK
More Yuan and Song class SSKs?PLAN Airpower in end of 2005
24 x Su-30MKK2 fighter-bombers
10 x JH-7A fighter-bombers
19 x JH-7 Block 02 fighter-bombers
18 x JH-7 Block 01 fighter-bombers
100 x J-8B/D fighters
120 x J-7EH fighters (Navy’s J-7E)
?? x H-6D/M
I thought all the 636Ms were supposed to be delivered by the end of this year.
tphuangAre you in out of touch with the world lately , Indian sonar development is one of the key sucess of the IN & DRDO, Most of the modern IN Ships Talwar,Delhi and other top of line ships.
I will give you this one, the Indian sonar is one of the strength of IN.
Isnt That a obvious fact , I am questioning the 7 Blade Made In China skewed propellor , Make a 7 Blade skewed propellor is an art , its not about if you can make it its about how good the craftman ship is when designing a skewed propellor , Ever compared a German and Russian skewed propellor
As I quote below, 039 benefitted from a lot of German assistance. I’m sure the propeller is just one of them. We’ve already shown you that the electronics in song more modern than that of 877EKM. And don’t diss China’s shipbuilding industry. It’s number 3 in the world right now behind Japan and South Korea. In a few years, it will be in a 3-way tie with those countries. The technology used in the Chinese shipyards are much better than that of the Russian shipyards. It builds ships for countries all around the world. If there is one thing can’t question, it is the quality of Chinese ships.
When I hear such arguments like Yuan is eqal to Amur and Song is equal to T-209 then I have nothing to say , I just laugh it away 😀
The person I quoted is Richard Fisher. His knowledge of PLA is good enough to speak to the American congress. You obviously know more than him, maybe you should tell George Bush that, so he will ask your opinion of PLA next time.
I am sure some one here one day will claim than HAN is equal to LA class and the new Type 093 would surpass Seawolf capability.
Nobody said that and nobody will.
Foxtrot is a cold war veteran , People who manned it knew what it was , As I stated before Indian Sonar and C&C system is preffered over Russian one speaks volume about its capability.
You saw the C&C of Song. It is clearly more advanced than the Russian one.
I quoted Janes on Song , Much better then quoting Wiki.
As I said, that JDW article was written years ago when the problems surrounding Song were not solved like they are solved now.
tphuangI dont expect Chinese lecture on the noiseness of subs , thats the last thing you would like to talk about when you want to discuss Chinese sub development.
Right, Maybe you won’t sound so foolish if you bothered to read up on a few things and provide some links for your arguments.
Appereance can be deceptive , Subs has lot to it than just appearance .
Please stop even remotely comparing the Agosta 90B to the Songs , There is a generational difference bewteen the two , Just because Chinese built their Song Class in mid nineties dosent make it equal to the Agosta90B,T-209 ,Kilo and other subs.
Let’s put it this way, the Kilos that IN has don’t even have the 7 blade propeller. Do you have any proof that Song sub is at the level you are saying it is at? We’ve provided plenty, but you haven’t given a single thing.
Its Just like saying since we managed to develop the J-10 in early 2000 , so it should be comparable to the F-22.
Did you read my argument at all? I said that you can say one plane is not as good as another just because it’s stats are half classified and it hasn’t been exported. How do you even come up with this kind of skewed summary from my argument? I have to ask now, what kind of education have you had?
Firing of AshM is no great achievement at this time , Most of the western and russian subs have been having this capability since decades , Its just a natural progression , A Foxtrot of nineties would be capable of doing the same .
But it doesn’t, does it? A sub only has so many things you can compare: quietness, weaponary and
Nothing Personal here , But ever thought of visiting a Shrink.
Wow, I’m amazed you even know what a shrink is. For those comparisons, check this:
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.83/pub_detail.asp
“The PLAN now has about 12 to 14 modern Type 039 SONG attack submarines and recently expanded production of this type to a second shipyard, that could support annual production of 2 to 3. The Type 039 has benefited from some foreign assistance, including Israeli electronic and design assistance, German diesel engines and very likely, German design assistance to correct the Israeli assistance. It incorporates modern quieting technology like a 7-blade skewed propeller, anechoic tiling, and is equipped with extensive digital command and sonar processing equipment, and is armed with the YJ-81Q, and perhaps the YJ-82Q anti-ship missile…. But in 2004 the PLAN launched the first of its new YUAN class, which bears a suspicious resemblance to Russia’s new Project 677 LADA class SSK. Inasmuch as the 677 incorporates improved crew-reducing automation, better sonar, and in the future, AIP systems, it can be surmised that the YUAN may benefit from all these technologies.”
An unsucessful project ( not a total failure ) can be continue to progress , If it gives you a learning curve to develop a better sub like Yuan , Please dont throw numbers to defend its sucess , Kilo’s were purchased when Chinese realised their sub technology was generational behind the West , Kilo is a good move to leap frog to something much much better , and upgrade Chinese Sub technology and knowledge , IMO it was a right move by China, As it is greatly helping the Yuan Project.
so now, you have gone from a failure to unsuccessful project. interesting… What would you quantify as an successful project? Normally, when a product gets a lot of purchases, it’s considered to be successful. Those items that you used were written years ago. They did not include the recent assessment which I posted. China bought the Kilos, because it needed to quickly replace its existing outdated fleet of 033 and 035. As I said, China needed to replace these things fast and having the Russians build subs for China sped up the process of replacement. And most importantly, China received the Club missiles and the Russian torpedoes, which China badly needed.
tphuangAustin, seriously. Are you reading the stuff that you are typing out?
For subs, the number one importance is its quietness. It doesn’t matter what kind of control or sonar you put on it. If it’s an old design, then it’s relatively speaking noisy. Song’s appearance has been compared to Agosta 90B pretty much every where. Do a search on it. I would expect its noise level to be at that level. And you still have failed to comment on its ability to fire AShM and anti-ridiation missile.
As for Yuan, it’s been compared more to Amur than Kilo. Again, do a search on it.
As for Song being a failure, how can it be a failure when there are 14 of them as opposed to 12 kilos? As we have mentionned numerous times before, the fact that China is mass producing this thing shows that the problems are fixed. Are you saying mki is a failure because India is buying 200 MRCAs? Song and Kilo serve two different roles in PLAN. Think about the 033 and 035s that are retiring, do you think it can all be replaced by one class of subs?
You are trying to infer that Mig-21 is better than J-10? I told you, it’s not secret. If it’s on xinhua and people’s daily, how can it be secret? Do I need to post the link again?
So by your logic, we can’t determine whether Mig-21 or F-22 is better, because F-22’s critical stats are classified and it hasn’t been exported yet.
tphuangIN already operates atleast 2 Foxtrot , which has meen modified with DRDO designed Sonars and Control System.
Also the fact that Foxtrot has been sucessfully exported to so many countries speaks well of the sub itself.
right, Mig-21 are exported to many countries too. Are they still useful today? Com’on, you need to have better arguments than that.
tphuangyou seriously don’t think China would start mass producing a sub that is in the same class as something India already discarded, do you?
from Richard Fisher’s most recent article on Song:
“The PLAN now has about 12 to 14 modern Type 039 SONG attack submarines and recently expanded production of this type to a second shipyard, that could support annual production of 2 to 3. The Type 039 has benefited from some foreign assistance, including Israeli electronic and design assistance, German diesel engines and very likely, German design assistance to correct the Israeli assistance. It incorporates modern quieting technology like a 7-blade skewed propeller, anechoic tiling, and is equipped with extensive digital command and sonar processing equipment, and is armed with the YJ-81Q, and perhaps the YJ-82Q anti-ship missile”
One more thing, 039 also has the capability of firing anti-radiation missile.
tphuangWith, India and Japan expanding the way they are, I think the arms race already started.
tphuangTaiwan should be getting two Kidss this year. Also, no one even knows who is going to build those submarines for Taiwan.
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