What I can tell you is that lion share of all AMRAAMs fired in anger were still fired from WVR radius (5-8 miles). From that point of view even today’s Pk (however good or miserable) is still much better than a real Pk to-be-achieved in BVR conditions. Not speaking about fighting a comparable enemy equipped with ECM/jamming gear.

Call yourself lucky if one of three/four AMRAAMs fired at 25km in ECM environment actually hits something. And that counts for MICA or R-77, as well.

You also have to take into account such things as were the missiles fired within their optimal launch parameters? If not, then you can’t really fault the missile’s performance, and while that can be said about all missiles, the likelihood that a VLO platform would have to fire under those circumstances is lower than a non-VLO platform. This would give the missile the best probability of achieving its maximum potential.

so? how many MICAs were fired on real targets? nad when F-35 comes to service, thingies like the meteor would have been in se’rvice for several years already, much better weapon.

I have no doubt that the Meteor is a good weapon, but seeing as how no figures have been released on it or the -120D, it’s hard to make an absolute assertion X>Y.

And you’ll fire the AMRAAM D against what? even the eurocanards present sufficiently low observable targets that you may have trouble radar locking at a long range. And if you count on an AWACS doing the job for you (finding your target and giving coordinates for shoooting), that can work either way too, unless you consider all future wars will be “communications tools” like the last ones: picking some remote, small, pretty much defensless country and blow it to stone age with overwhelming numbers… but for that, you can do as well with current fighters and need neither the F-22 nor the F-35…

If the Rafale or Typhoon are carrying weapons, EFTs, then the F-22/35 shouldn’t have too much trouble detecting them at long ranges. A smart Rafale/Typhoon(fill in the blank aircraft) pilot won’t be flying around with ECM emitting at all times though, as that’ll just broadcast their presence.

any interceptor with its combat load will do as well… and, in any case, the missile he shoot will outrun any fighter today

If that interceptor was heading towards the F-35 initially, and then had to pull a high G manuever to turn and give chase, then the F-35 would have a significant advantage. The opposing fighter would then have to accelerate again, and fire at a receding supersonic target. That wouldn’t be the optimal shot in terms of a missiles NEZ. Additionally, if that fighter had had to do evasive manuevers to avoid incoming missiles, fired from the F-35(assuming that they hadn’t been successful), then that would put even more distance between them and the F-35.

If you look to fight Mirage F1s, you can easily stay with beefed up F-15s and the whole VLO concept is pointless. What do they have to shoot at you, Matra R-530s?

So you want to say that an aircraft that you are offering to Euro allies as a premier air defense fighter with deliveries starting ca 2015 will only be good enough until 2025. If yes, then we pretty much agree because that is exactly what I am thinking about the F-35.

That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that there won’t be any fighters that challenge the F-35, available in significant numbers till that time frame, and the F-35(and AAMs) of 2025 will be considerably more advanced than what is currently being tested.

basically, agains a mig29 (80s model) you’ll have a good chance of survival, but against a more or less modern threat from now and in the next 15 years, you’ll be about as well armed as the F-105 in vietnam… er, no.. on the seconds thought, the F-105 had speed, at least… the F-35 won’t even have that

How about M1.6-1.8 with a combat load. What fighters are you speaking of that will be going faster than this with a combat load?

Doesn’t make sense. The Raptor has no passive homing A2A weapons (except for the HOJ capability of the AMRAAM which I doubt they have been using there).

Also sounds awfully like 1on1 stuff. Does either air force actually do such missions? Would be extremely surprised if the USAF did. Don’t really know about the French. Seems like a made up story to me all together.

The A2A weapons aren’t what was passive. They only needed to get close enough for their own seekers to go active.

What missiles? If we talk about fighting adversary LO and VLO designs, then you can basically forget AMRAAM and BVR. Suddenly maneuverability becomes very relevant.

Well, unless you want to tell me that F-35 is only suitable for fighting against legacy threats..

That may be the case in 2025. For the forseeable future, the threats will continue to be Fulcrums, Flankers, M2000s, F-1s, etc…