wrightwingCould one of you smart clever people just explain to me why the F18G was developed and deployed if the APG79 aesa in the F18E/F is so good at ecm as you guys are stating?
Because the F-18G covers a broader band of freqs aside from fire control bands.
wrightwingAnd why would you do this?
Why to use an important resource like a radar as an ECM jammer?
Why not leave that task to specialized pods? or special aircrafts? while the others systems/planes concentrate on what they can do best?
Why would you split the radar’s energy for this kind of thing?
Is a stupid idea
Because an AESA radar is capable of mulitasking(simultaneous a2a, a2g, comms, EA), and still remaining effective. That’s kind of the whole reason why everyone is moving towards AESA systems, due to this flexibility.
wrightwingEF111 costs ~$40m and can practically cover as much as 12 F16s, or more depending on attack profile and targets scattering.
Now, that’s 48 ARAAMs and 48 Mk84s in the air for a price of ~$650m.
How much AMRAAMs and Mk84s can a price equivalent of 2xF22 carry (if they manage to take off at all, due 67% op.readiness)?As for mr.Casolini’s comment, why exactly have you quoted it?
2 F-22s don’t cost $650m though(more like 4 F-22s, each with 8 SDBs), for one. Secondly how many air crews do you want to expose to modern IADS? Thirdly, F-22s have demonstrated an operational readiness rate of much higher than 67%. Lastly, the F-22s would have a much greater element of surprise, increasing the likelihood that a HVT wouldn’t move out of the kill zone prior to the attack.
wrightwingyou are right, it is an advantage today, but for how long???
and what is left of these invisible planes if stealth is taken out of the equasion?
It will be decades before that’s an issue, and upgrades will be occurring during this time period too.
wrightwingThe J10B uses AESA and a Chinese ramjet AAM is in development so thats a transcant advanatge at best.
Does use, or will use AESA? How does/will it stack up to later generation systems? When is this ramjet AAM supposed to reach IOC? What systems will the Gripen NG have by the time the J-10B is equipped with AESA/ramjet AAMs?
wrightwingThe Chengdu F-10 outclasses the Gripen NG in top speed, service ceiling and climb rate due to its more powerful AL-31FN or WS-10A turbofan, while the Gripen NG outclasses the F-10 in avionics and situational awareness.
How much does the F-10 weigh compared to the Gripen NG though. You have to look at the T/W, drag, etc… as well as just the available thrust.
Do we know the comparisons in instantaneous/sustained turn rates, climb rates, acceleration, between the 2 aircraft?
wrightwingIt’s easy to believe that a Typhoon could bat down F-15s all day.
Though before the helmet arrives, doing so against F-15s with JHMCS and AIM-9X is more challenging.
The sort of ratio quoted, in one engagement does seem extraordinary, unless the F-15s came in in pairs, making it a succession of 2 vs 2 or even 2 vs 1 engagements, unless the F-15 pilots made some extraordinary mistakes.
That would depend on which F-15 variant the Typhoon faced, and how it was armed. An AESA equipped F-15 w/ JHMCS/9x/120C7/D wouldn’t be the easiest prey.
wrightwingBecause this is largely pointless, due your inability to grasp the point. This is why I linked you to some readings and all you managed to find is:
??/LOLAs for A, B, C, D, E, come on man…Learn how the radar works. 😉
You do realize that the APG-77 frequency hops at >1000 freqs/second, from 8-12 GHz. What I do grasp is that it’s not a simple task to jam every frequency(or even a goodly portion) in that bandwidth simultaneously. Not only does your jamming system have to have enough emitters to cover broad band ranges, but you have to have enough power to overcome the radar’s power. This may work if you’re at some distance from the radar source, but not nearly so easy as you get closer and the radar burns through. Additionally, the jammer would have to know it needed to jam, before it could begin sending narrow beams to the source.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/an-apg-77.htm
Unlike conventional radars which emit high energy pulses in a narrow frequency band, the AN/APG-77 emits low energy pulses over a wide frequency band using a technique called spread spectrum transmission. When multiple echoes are returned, the radar’s signal processor combines the signals. The amount of energy reflected back to the target is about the same as a conventional radar, but because each LPI pulse has considerably less amount of energy and may not fit normal modulation patterns, the target will have a difficult time detecting the F-22.
Again- I’d love to hear you address each point, and where I’m in error. It’s intellectually lazy to merely say “Learn how the radar works.”
wrightwingAnd who spoke about the APG-77 explicitely here? Do you know the exact working frequency of any radar and with what rate they change…?
Well this thread is about Rafale vs. Typhoon vs. F-22, not Rafale vs. SU-27/30, mig-29, R-77, SA-6 (kub), SA-10/12, SA-11 (buk), SA-19 (tunguska), SA-15 (thor) and zsu-23 (shilka).
I do agree that the APG-77 isn’t the priority threat for the SPECTRA though.
wrightwing@wrightwing,
it’s all well and nice you have your doubts, but how about doubting your knowledge on the matter for a second and actually learn how does radar and ECM work, before posting again?
If you do that you will hopefully see the amount of crap you managed to write in just three sentences of your last post…not the mention the whole F22 – Rafale discussion so far…
How about stating what your objections are specifically to what I wrote, rather than offering pithy commentary.
A- jamming every freq– much like a frequency hopping radio, you’d need to jam a wide range simultaneously to degrade the performance significantly. For example, a SINCGARS radio can still transit/receive even when over 80 percent of its available freqs are being jammed. The amount of power and bandwidth necessary to jam this many freqs makes the jammer stick out like a beacon though.
B- on a narrow band– just how many jamming emmitters are you going to be able to simultaneously focus using narrow beams, in order to avoid detection from third party ESMs, while jamming enough freqs to render the APG-77 ineffective?
C- You’d need a lot of emitters to cover that amount of bandwidth– your not going to simultaneously jam every freq with one(or even a few emitters). I have no doubt that SPECTRA is an effective system, but its certainly not as powerful/versatile as a dedicated electronic warfare aircraft.
D- get a fix of the origin– If there’s an emission pointed at the F-22, you can bet the ALR-94 will alert the pilot to the presence and location of the emitter. This is of course assuming that the source of the jamming was aware of the F-22’s location, to send these narrow beams its way.
E- the F-22 could likely get either a passive shot off– if the F-22 gets a fix on the location of the jammer, it can provide datalink cueing to the AMRAAM, getting it close enough for the on board seeker to take over(or HOJ mode). Additionally it could also through information sharing with another F-22, provide the location of the emitter, and the second F-22 could provide the targetting information.
From your radar tutorial link
An important advantage of the multiple frequency procedure is the high jamming immunity of the procedure.
wrightwingThe nice thing with AESA jamming is that you can point your jamming straight at the emmitter on a narrow beam, so other sensors in the area have a much harder time detecting your jamming, let alone firing on the beacon.
Nic
I have my doubts that you can jam every freq in the APG-77’s range, on a narrow band, simultaneously though. You’d need a lot of emitters to cover that amount of bandwidth.
Additionally, the F-22’s ALR-94 would certainly pick up on the jamming, and get a fix of the origin. At that point the F-22 could likely get either a passive shot off, or hand off the info for a third party shot.
wrightwingThat is why AC on rafale if exists is perhaps intended to supress not all rafale radar signature but supress some specific radar returns from some more “brilliant” parts of the airframe to other radars.
That being said we can only speculate. Did you know the origin of this rumor jackjack ? Here it is for your information.
From Bill Sweetman :
It was then fueled by an A&C article about MACE-X NAto exercise when it was reported that the MystereXX spectra testbed managed to remain undetected from modern SAM site.
That the story of this rumor.
Here’s a key point in that article-
the challenge is that it requires very fast processing and that poorly executed active cancellation could make the target more rather than less visible.
I think it’s more likely this system might be effective in breaking a missile lock, giving the pilot an opportunity to conduct evasive manuevers, rather than rendering the plane electronically invisible to detection.
wrightwingSo you think it will never be defeated ?
By the way, i don’t think Arthuro intended that AC works, but just quoted it as a rumor.
It can be defeated, if you can simultaneously jam the entire frequency range the APG-77 uses. This makes you a pretty beacon though, for passive shots.
There isn’t a jammer that will freqency hop jam the APG-77 though, jamming one freq at a time.
wrightwingeven if it is the WashPost :
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/09/AR2009070903020.html
Do you remember the old joke about Ladas?
Adaptation : You cannot see the Raptor coming on account of stealth…
but you can follow it easily by the trail of pieces it leaves!
😉
That article has been debunked. I don’t have time right now to give a link, but will post later.
wrightwingWithout questioning F22 performance it has two drawbacks in my opinion.
It can’t positively identify a threat visually. In many scenarios that would be a handicap as he would need to come a WVR to a target to identify while a rafale can identify a foe over 30NM in good conditions.
This isn’t necessarily the case though. It may very well identify its target through NCTR, or through third party info(remember NCW). Additionally, if the Raptor is sanitizing enemy air space, friendlies will probably not be out in front, easing the concerns of fratricide.
The weak point of F22 kill chain is probably the AMRAM. Not that it is a bad BVR weapon but against SPECTRA I bet that rafale probability to survive is not null and not negligible. A BVR missile seeker as far more constraint than integrated AESA jamming antenas in terms of power supply, volume constraint etc…
If the amram option fail then that would be Mica IR vs AIM9 and here no contest…
The question remains though is how much reaction time SPECTRA has? Additionally, while the MICA may have a longer range, that isn’t necessarily important, if the Raptor is able to slip within AIM-9X range before firing. Additionally, the Raptor will be able to exit the kill zone much faster than a foe, making it a much more challenging target for inbound weapons.
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