I typically understood NEZ the same way obligatory presented it: As a statement about the engagement geometry and the relations between its kinematic variables of shooter, target and weapon–thinking in possible vectors.
What stealth does is allowing you to operate within a launch platform’s and its weapons’ NEZ (versus your position and kinematic state) without becoming an actual target. Does not make the NEZ of your opponent’s weapons smaller, but less risky for you. That’s the point of an F-22 crossing the canopy of an AMRAAM-equipped F-15 for example: Well within NEZ of the weapon, launch paramters and target kinematics, but not a suitable target to lock on.
In my understanding at least.
You may be within the kinematic NEZ, but that’s academic if no firing solution is available. You also have to look at the range that the launch platform can detect you, and the range at which the weapon can be employed effectively against you. There is a range at which weapons can be used against stealthy targets, where they have a low probability of escape, but you have to include the fire control/seeker limitations into the equation too.
I must disappoint you but a gap between AIM-120A/B and AIM-120C is much smaller than a gap between AIM-9B and AIM-9X. The C was developed so that it fits into internal bays in the first place – other updates were of secondary importance. While it’s obvious that the C model is likely to be better than A (less prone to jamming), the difference is maybe as large as the one between Lima and Mike Sidewinders. So don’t mix the AIM-9B in, makes your claims look more pathetic than they are.
There’s a big difference in capabilities even between the various C models, much less the A/B models.
AMRAAM A,B,C,D has around the same chance to engage a target at any given G.
But C and D has improved ECCM, longer range for any given target, can be carried internally and has a smaller warhead.Here is a nice link on AA missiles.
http://www.canit.se:8000/~griffon/aviation/text/missiles/aam.html
Where in that link did you get the information that would lead you to that conclusion? One of the reasons for a smaller warhead was because the missiles were more accurate, therefore more room for larger motors became possible. The newer missiles also have a much greater HOBS capability than the early ones. Another thing to consider is that if fired at the same range, the missile with the longer powered flight profile will have more energy to deal with maneuvering targets. With the upgrades you have a more accurate missile with longer ranges/NEZs, more flexible(HOJ/2 way datalink/etc..), that is more resistant to countermeasures.
🙂
So, it is suddenly only the C-model that is BVR-capable? A and B does not count?
I think the point was that we only have the data from early(and far less capable variants), so we can’t extrapolate too much in trying to assess the latest models. Even the A models have been the most successful radar guided missiles fired in combat to date.
No, stealth reduces the risk of operating inside NEZ.
Speed, altitude and long range AAM is what let you engage outside NEZ.
No, with stealth, the NEZ is significantly smaller, therefore you can operate outside of it. If you’re in a conventional aircraft, then I’d agree that speed, altitude, and a long range AAM are what would enable that.
I read it the other way, -they consider AMRAAM obsolete by 2015 but will have to accept it until then as they have no choice.
I’d say obsolete is overstating it a bit, especially when using the word AMRAAM generically. There’s a huge difference between the A model, and the latest model(or those that’ll be coming on line next year or so for that matter). The C7/D most certainly won’t be obsolete in 2015.
From the article:
“The Meteor was scheduled to enter UK service in August 2012, after an eight-year development period. That date has been redefined as the “platform-ready In-service date”
In other words we are talking nonsense but if we use the term “redefine”, we hope nobody will notice.
Another thing in the article that gives some insight too though is-
“the MoD said that the Raytheon AIM-120C AMRAAM missiles currently carried by the Typhoon would “provide sufficient capability out to 2015.”
That shows a vote of confidence for the capability of the C model AMRAAM(most likely the C5).
Another “clueless idiot” right here!
Just for the records, i am going to repeat myself, the Raptor 2D TVC his locked on a fixed position at transonic/supersonic speeds…
That’s almost correct. The F-22 does use TVC for supersonic trim control, but not for aggressive maneuvers at high speeds.
could it be combined into the same airframe as the other super hornets?
The Growler is the same airframe as other Super Hornets.
http://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/02/17/af-likely-to-get-60-more-f-22s-allies-out-of-luck/
By Colin Clark Tuesday, February 17th, 2009 11:27 am
Posted in Air, International, Policy
The Air Force’s chief of staff was careful to withhold his professional military advice until Defense Secretary Robert Gates gets it, but Gen. Norton Schwartz told reporters this morning that he would not “dispute” comments by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs late last year that the service would get an additional 60 F-22s, for a total of 243.Schwartz then poured cold water on any hopes the Japanese and Australians might have of buying F-22s, saying some of the technologies in the plane are just too sensitive to export. However, he said “it was a possibility” that allies could pay for planes that were modified extensively enough to eliminate the export concerns. Given how expensive that would be, Schwartz has probably put the kibosh on export sales….
Asked about John Young’s comments last November that the F-22’s mission capable rate was too low and expected enhancements too expensive for the country to afford, Schwartz said “the truth of the matter is” the F-22’s rate is 60 percent including stealth issues and is “in the mid- to high-70s without low observable” issues. Looking at the system overall, the F-22’s reliability “is respectable,” he said.
It is a strike FIGHTER. Not a “striker”. A striker is an A-6 or an F-111 or a Tornado (non- F-3 of course).
It’s A2A capability is EVERY bit as important to the aircraft’s design as A2G.
I have never once claimed it is superior to anything in basic aerodynamic performance.
I will now though and I think it will be a pretty reasonable aerodynamic performer at it’s best, at least on par with early F-16 and F/A-18 variants throughout the flight regime, perhaps a slight improvement, but not substantially better, at least at it’s introduction to service anyway. Who can say with regard to growth variants?
Well being able to out accelerate/out turn a clean F-16(with a combat load and without using A/B), and with greater high Alpha abilities is significantly more than a slight improvement.
If one wishes to talk kinematics, a Meteor equipped F-35 at a reasonable altitude, say 35,000 feet plus WILL possess an A2A missile performance that is kinematically superior to ANY current generation aircraft/missile combo and that includes supercruising F-22’s at 60,000 feet. Future US A2A missiles are likely to be similarly capable, if not moreso.
-for A/A missions the F-35 wouldn’t need to stay at 35,000 feet
-I would have to disagree with a subsonic launch of a Meteor at 35,000 feet exceeding the range of a AIM-120D, launched supersonically at 60,000 feet.
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I only said so because you said 10-15 years by the time the PAK FA will be in service. As for vs legacy fighters like Typhoon and Rafale I agree whole heartedly.
We also don’t know how widely proliferated the PAK FA will be, as I suspect it will be a fairly expensive aircraft, that many poorer air forces won’t be able to afford(or afford in large quantities). I suspect that 4th Gen aircraft will be around for many decades to come.
Guarantee and high ikelihood do not go hand in hand :). Let us wait till the PAK FA is out :).
I was referring more to the EF/Rafale/etc…. vs. some other fighter. We don’t know what the PAK FA’s RCS is, so we can’t really compare them yet.
As long as they continue to receive upgrades, and have the proper support, I think they’ll still be viable.
Pogosyan, while at the UK airshow with the F-22, said that “while the SU-35BM isn’t a match for the Raptor, the PAK-FA will be.”
He also claimed he wasn’t impressed by its maneuverability, and said the Su-35BM matched it there.
This is operating on the assumption that the F-22 airshow displays have shown everything it can do. It also doesn’t take into account the F-22’s abilities at combat speeds/altitudes.