wrightwingI’m sure that for an asset as valuable as an AWACs, there’ll be considerable EW support(either onboard or in the escort package), along with escorts, along with the standoff distance, to keep them safe.
wrightwingWith its very, very high static pressure ratio, its engines are totaly unsiutable for speeds over 1.7 Mach. No wonder its max afterburner speed is 1.8 Mach and about 1.4 Mach dry.
You should learn what effect the high static pressure ratio have on high speed flight.
See “Defence today”, April.2005:
I’d rather go with what the pilots are saying. It HAS demonstrated M1.8 without afterburner(and possibly faster), in level flight. It’s interesting how your willing to except all sorts of whimsical claims about the Mig 25, yet show a complete disregard for what F-22 pilots have observed.
wrightwingThe max attained in tests, without operational equipment, with shorter wing span and higher wing sweep, was 1.57 Mach.
You can not count to more than 1.4 Mach in service configuration, with much less wing sweep and far higher wing span than prototype.
There are many sources which state that it can not attain 2 M with afterburners, which is understandable, concerning its propulsion system.No. I said service ceiling.
F-22s that are production models were what I was referring to, not YF-22s, and the speeds I mentioned have been observed. The F-22’s service ceiling is in the 60K+ AGL range(compared to most fighters that operate in the 30-45K range). I’m not sure what sources you’re referring to, but they’re wrong.
wrightwingThe F-22 Raptor capabilities are overrated greatly. It can not attain 2 Mach even in afterburner !!!
And its service ceiling is miserable compared to Mig-23, not to speak of MiG-25/31.
It has very good subsonic and transsonic capabilities, true, but over 1.7 to 1.8 Mach it losses energy rapidly thanks to its simple fixed air intakes.It is surely not able to attain any speed or altitude record, even for American aircraft.
Huh? Did you get that off a Russian Wikipedia entry? The Raptor has officially demonstrated M1.8 without afterburner in level flight(and there have been rumors that it may even be able to hit M2 in supercruise). The top speed I’ve heard is M2.42+(and this is due to the composites/RAM coatings, and not available thrust).
I’m not even sure how to respond to your service ceiling claims. Are you saying that the Flogger regularly operated at 65K AGL or higher?
wrightwingDid you ever ask yourself why AIM-9, AIM-7 and AIM-120 all have achieved kills in Iraq, except Phoenix.
Because the F-14s were flying CAP defending the fleet, and the Migs that did manage to fly were nowhere near for the most part. I suspect had there been more targets to shoot at, then you would’ve seen different results.
wrightwingThe american experts, after examination in Japan, said:
“We thought that it was a damned good airplane, and that is what it turned out to be.”
Source: “Mig Pilot”It has extraordinary maneuverability compared to other Mach 3 airplanes.
Not compared to Mig-29, of course.What other Mach 3 aircraft can do Immelmans, loops, fast dived, split-s, etc,etc ?
What is more remarkable, all this is offered to civilians, with no flight experiences.!!!
That shows that the Mig-25 is very,very safe aircraft, doing all these maneuvers.That is something not to be found in any western Mach 3 aircraft for long, long time.
It’s irrelevant how manueverable it is compared to the SR-71 as it’s not gonna be dogfighting any other M3 aircraft. A C-130 is probably more agile than the SR-71. The Mig 25 is a dog when compared to true fighters in terms of agility. I see you downgraded your superlatives as well.
wrightwingthe F-15`s record is mostly with MiG-21s and MiG-23BNs old aircraft, even when it faced MiG-29s all of these did not operate with AEW support aircraft and had a total disadvantage in numbers.
Impressive is if you get a 2 versus 2 F-15C and MiG-29M combat both supported by AWACs and both armed with active radar AAMs and the F-15 prevails;)
If both aircraft have AWACS and BVR missiles, the F-15 is gonna get the first shot off, as it’s got a much better radar and missile combo.
wrightwingThe fact is that the Tomcats did nothing in IRAQ, for more that 10 years, where the targets were realy very easy to destroy, without AWACS and other support and logistics on Iraqi side, which americans had. Not to mention great numerical superiority.
Besides of two Migs-25, which were understandably too difficult targets, there were also Phoenix shooting at Mig-23, and at MI-8 helicopter.
All were missed. These are facts.There was, in fact one F-14 kill. It was MI-8 helicopter when AIM-9 was used.
And that is it.Leave alone fictions about Iranian Phoenix kill. This is hoax.
Both Tomcats and Phoenixes were expensive toys, only. They were highly valued only because of many propaganda stories and fictions.
What was the range of the Mig-23 when the F-14 fired at it? The reason the F-14s didn’t get kills in Iraq had more to do with where they were flying at, than their inability to shoot down other planes. Whenever Iraqis got painted by F-14 radars, they’d fly away, as they respected them based upon their experience with the Iranians. You can’t judge effectiveness solely on the number of kills either. If the mission of the F-14 is fleet air defense, and protection of strike groups, then all that’s needed for success is to keep enemy aircraft from operating where they’d like to.
wrightwingIt is designed to counter Blackbird also, not only XB-70.
You are obviously misled by some cheap literature.
In fact, it was discovered, after Japan landing, that it is very advanced interceptor with no western equivalent, in terms of propulsion, weapon systems and performance.
It had the most powerful radar in the world, which no one could jamm, it has very high performance missiles, which have speed of more than 7 Mach after launch (combined missile and a/c speed), so that they have to be made of titanium, has very advanced digital computer, and able to execute all fighter maneuvers (which no other Mach 3 a/c can do), and most important of all, it denied Americans from using SR-71 in its intended role (to spy russians), as the American general Keegan say.
So, it was the SR-71 which, because of Mig-25, never fulfiled its intended role.
And because of extraordinary Mig-31, it was retired from service entirely.Look what American general Keegan said:
I didn’t see any of the claims that you’re making in that article other than-
– the Mig 25 is the best tactical reconnaissance plane.
there was no mention of advanced digital computers, Mach 7 missiles, extraordinary manuerability, etc…
it did say it was a brilliant marriage of ancient and new technology, which could only be achieved in the West at exorbitant costs.
wrightwingI would just add that being more agile doesn’t necessarily translate into Air Superiority. Otherwise the USAF would have a fleet full of F-16’s and no F-15’s. As a matter of fact history is full of fighters that weren’t extremely agile………Yet, had the overall capability to win nonetheless!:D
Of course if you have advanced avionics, VLO, excellent weapons, AND agility, that’s certainly not a bad thing.
wrightwingThanks, I know what they mean I just got mixed up! I’m going square eyed!
Just out of curiosity, where did you get the notion that the Raptor was subsonic? Are you confusing the B-2 and F-22?
wrightwingThat is because none of these trajectories were in streight line.
As you probably know, every a/c is faster in streight line than in closed circuit, because in turning flights there are added drag ( in the form of additional induced and parasite drag).
As you know, it is tracked over Israel at 3.2 Mach, in streight line.
Note how much the Mig-25 is faster than YF-12 in closed circuit of 500km and 1000 km.
I wonder how fast a Mig-25 could fly from LA to New York(SR-71 -68 minutes), or New York to London (SR-71 -1:54).
wrightwingYou are right to some degree but bear in mind that the americans spent enormous sums of tax paying money, trying to develop Mach 3 interceptor: XF-103, XF-108, YF-12.
Only years later, when technical difficulties emerged as too great, they cancelled these projects.
The point is that they did not manage to satisfy requirements.Look at YF-12 alert time. Totaly unacceptable:
It wasn’t an inability to develop/deploy, as much as an unwillingness to. It all comes down to what the priority and requirement is, not what the absolute engineering limitations are.
wrightwingIt is a big embarasment for USN that they didn’t manage to shoot down a single a/c in IRAQ with much publicised Phoenix.
The Migs were too fast and elusive, even for the latest F-14D/Phoenix combination.
.
Fast and elusive? How about, the Migs knew better than to get within range of the F-14s. In any event, the purpose of the F-14 CAPs was to protect inbound strike aircraft, so if they could do that by keeping the Migs away, that’s a successful mission.
As for the early retirement- it wasn’t due to lack of capability. It was due to saving money for F-18E/F and F-35s, etc… F-14s were excellent aircraft till the end, but cost a lot to operate in both time and money.
wrightwingBottom line up front- The Mig-25 does some things really well. It isn’t as good a spy plane as the SR-71, and it isn’t as good a fighter as F-14/15/etc…, however. If you need to intercept a B-70, or don’t have access to an SR-71, then it’s a pretty good platform. The Mig-31 is far superior, as it has the radar/avionics/weapons, to be able to operate somewhat autonomously, with nearly the same speed, greater range, greater ability to manuever.
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