gregIt also means that it is competitive with Gen 4.5 aircraft too……
Does it ? ? ?
Eurofighters and Flankers eat F16s and F15s for breakfast.
Stealth will always be better than no stealth, regardless of breakthroughs, all else being equal.
That is the point.
What if (ok it is a “what if” question but a good one), stealth is here no more and everything else is not the same?
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
gregI doubt that the A 7 radar can locate hostile fighters at 130 Nmiles in A-A, or, in A-G, locate a 155 mm howitzer from 80 Nmiles, while in the same time, tracking 30 planes, as the APG 81…http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/ygs/awst_1-23047798/
Every airplane has a place in history.
In its time the A7 did had some extraordinary avionics.
And WAS cheap 😉
gregso USAF was just fooling itself when they found it to be 400% more effective than legacy fighters?
If a customer asks from me to write a computer program that proves that Meril Strip is more beutiful than Sharlize Theron, I will find a way too do so.
the F-35 is MORE maneuverable than an F-16. the non-weight-optimized AA-1 F-35 is routinely outrunning its F-16 chase planes
That is GOOD. It means that the 35 can outmaneuver MiG-21s, and Su-22s.
and oh yeah, it has this little thing called steath
Oh stealth again…
The answer to all questions, the pill to all sicknesses 🙂
I ll tell you something about stealth.
In the world history of warfare, there have been MAJOR breakthroughs that were countered in sort time or MINOR breakthroughs that were countered in long time, but there has never been a MAJOR breakthrough that lasted LONG time.
sure, it’s just a silly little bomb-truck, you just keep thinking that right until the moment your super-duper sukhoi gets blown from the sky
I dont fly sukhois myself. Nor do pilots I know.
gregyou’re wrong, it was designed with air dominance in mind from the very beginning
after all, it will be the main fighter on US carriers
do you think they would send out carriers without a competent A2A capability? (ok, bad example, just look at the SH :mad:)
not absurd at all. USAF simulations show it to be 400% more effective than the best legacy fighters on the market today.
yes that includes the Sukhoi
1. if number of missiles is the criteria for a successful fighter, we should start converting C-5s 😀
2. 4 internal isn’t bad, and if a country decides it’s important enough, they can fund the dual launcher to fit 6 internally
3. all the missiles in the world do you no good if you never see what hit you
probably better since it will be regarded as a jobs program and there will be howls of opposition to cutting jobs
that’s nice
so what would you propose?
putting them all in the Sukhoi basket? the EF basket?
if your concern is truly about ‘all in one basket’ then you should be supporting a split buy like 33 F-35, 33 EF and 33 Sukhoi
oh dear, the testing program found a bug, let’s cancel the entire project :rolleyes:
so far the F-35 hasn’t experienced anything near as severe as the F-14 program (plane lost on first flight) or the F-22 program (plane crashed and burned)
sorry, can’t have it, not yours :
yes, yes it is
You must be living the same dream in the States.
The F35 is just a 21 century A7. Nothing more.
gregpersonaly I find these questions of price quite boring, but that is just my opinion.
The only insight I had was from JPL in 2007 (dassault’s international support manager for military activities). He said the price was between 50 an 55 millions euros depending of the version. That is it.
What makes me happy with the rafale programme is the commitment of the french government.
We had an unexpected order of 60 airframes instead of the 40 that everyone was enticipating and we will have continuous upgrades in the months/years to come.
After all, being a one nation managed programme is certainly an asset when we see the lack of commitment of some (if not all ?) of the typhoon partners.
btw : they have put the rafale B301 prtotype on the “Place de la concorde” in Paris! (as well as many other aicrafts like the mirage 3 or the tiger helicopter) for the celebration of 100 years of french aeronautics. I will see it tomorow.
post a photo if possible
gregAnd you will launch the Amraam through Pirate ,right? (no radar lock, no radar update). Allow me to say the usual “link please”? No, because i have been answering here for one day on the feasibility that OSF with IRST+TV camer+LRF can actually fire a BVR IIR missile at 40 km and it was so simple?! I had to go bring links to prove such LRFs exist ecc and it was so simple to do even with radar guided missiles without LRF and TVcamera?
:diablo:You asked for a THEORETICALL method.:diablo:
I do not pose any link.
PS: I never doubted the willing of French to built a competitive fighter.
I still doubt their ability to do so .:cool:
gregJust this thing interests me, because it would change the whole story. HOW exactly is PIRATE going to give ANY target data other than relative direction to a radar-guided missile? THEORETICALLY, i don’t mind.
THEORETICALLY?
TRIANGULATION!
You need 3 points for a triangle. Right?
You get one point from the target and 2 points from the couple of EFs.
Fighters fly in pairs. 2 EFs 2 PIRATES 3 points.
The data needed-available is: target bearing from both PIRATES and relative position of the 2 EFs (from GPS)
gregNot to mention the fundamental question, why should an airforce use the F-35, and not a cheaper mixture of legacy fighters plus UCAVs like the X-45 or the Barracuda ?
gregI am simply tired. And since i can’t find recently your proposal and since you questioned mine here, couldn’t you just repeat it here in 2 words?
I mean, you made me several questions and i tried to answer, can’t you answer just one mine too here?
P.S: Are you “Greg” in defenenet. gr too??? Cause i can’t recall this nickname.
I hope we will both be excused as we are both heavily OT.
So in a few words:
The only reliable solution to the problem seems to be a programmable AESA radar. So it is either Rafale+RBE2+meteor, or EF+CaptorE+meteor.
Nothing new so far.
The american solutions suffer from the fundamental dilemma, weather LM is willing to provide anti-stealth capabilities along with their stealth products.:eek:
Last time I heard, they weren’t willing to give source codes even to Britain.
The Russian solution suffers from political as well as reliability problems. I wouldn’t count it, although it is not bad.
So it is the French or the MultiEuropean fighter.
With AESA no less. Without it, it is a lost cause.
Amongst the two I would prefer the EF.
The reason?
If I had to bet which of the two will finally incorporate the AESA that would certainly be the Germans.
Why?
long story.
And yes, I am also very tired writing about this matter.
gregHeh, i always say, if you can’t beat them, join them…
A HA! I thought i may cause a problem here! It’s what i have been yelling about in the defencenet.gr. My whole reasoning is that the EF is too expensive to do the “F16 killer” , specially without AESA, so why take it, when F16 killers there are cheaper out there, including latest F16s too.
With infinite money, i would buy 200 EF + 400 F35.
A HA! I thought you may come to this! Exactly! Since we must give new money in a few years to buy F35, how wise is it to give today 90 mln euros per plane to get the super duper ultra blind in BVR EF, that will despite this make an awesome F16 killer?
I throw the towel on the floor. I have no argument to counter this. I have written pages and pages to the limit of nausea in defencenet. gr., that i prefer now a cheap F16 killer, to fill the gap of the A-7 and save money for the 2014 order of F35 + upgrade of older F16 + VHF radars for surveillance.
I will not answer that… Greg, since i have written a book till now about it in defencenet. gr and you know what i think.
I think it’s only fair that you tell me what YOUR proposal is. Cause i am really curious.
No need to be sarcastic Hyperiona.
As per my proposals you may find them.
@ defencenet.gr of course.
tons of pages for the last 2 years.
At this thread we are both OT.
gregWhatever. I wrote some pages in defencenet.gr, it is obvious that you and i understood different things from them.
You want a good answer for the F-35Ts? Ok, here it is: We buy 60 Eurofighters now, which will be able to deal much better in BVR with the F-35s now, with their Captor and Amraams, at a much cheaper price than F16s and Rafale, who clearly are less capable than the EF in tracking and shooting a missile at the F35 and in a few years we will buy 100 F-35H and the problem is over.
Isn’t that what you want? So, there you go. Now we can get along! 😀
Then we understand the same things.
The trouble with your approach is threefold.
a. 100 F-35H??? Do you have any idea how much they will cost?
b. When? There will be a 1-2 years gap. Both can remember what happened during such gaps in the near past.
c. And most important of all.
What makes you believe that F-35 will be able to counter itself in BVR???????
Of course it will incorporate an advanced AESA antenna.
But ($6000000 question here) why would the Americans program it to counter their very best and precious of their technologies?
gregTheoretically with the right software it should be possible to gather all required data for an accurate firing solution. So far no aircraft has such a software, at least not officially.
Indeed.
Fighters fly in pairs.
I really cannot understand what keeps software engineers to use IR data from both IRST and triangulate distances?
:confused::confused:
greg@hyperion
You still don’t provide a good answer for the F-35Ts.
BTW Imho I dough if F-16 can dogfight the F-35.
And I still dough if the F-35 prove to be -much- cheaper than the Eurofighters, at the end of the day.
gregYes, that’s why my first preference is to buy now more F16 as gap stop for the A-7 and if european, to prefer the Rafale. It’s cheaper than buying EF. Of course later we will get F35 to deal with the turkish F35. But why pay now for EF, that will probably come with Captor and will probably be in worse position compared to Rafale/MICA IR?
If the Su will be able to see the F35 at 25nm+ in 2020, at what can the EF with Captor do that today? My bet would be in worse than the Rafale. And the Rafale, if ordered today, apart the MICA IR, can come with RBE2 aesa.
(There is a very extensive discussion about it in defencenet.gr, i am too tired to write it all down again. It’s too long to explain all the reasoning).
I still read what you write on defencenet.gr, so you dont need to double it here.
The problem is that neither F-16B60 nor F-35H can cope with F-35Ts
Just look at the map.
gregHyperiona
These distances seems pathetic against a AMRAAM equipped F-35…;)
And mind you, can only be valid on a clear day (no clouds or humidity), which is unlikely on the aegean skies, most of the time.
I am afraid this tactics simply cannot work. Sorry to spoil it…
PS check this:
http://infognomonpolitics.blogspot.com/2008/09/107-aim-120c-7-amraam.html
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