greg…The DACT (Dissimilar Air Combat manoeuvres) 2vs2 scenarios had to do with 4 sorties of air battle between solely 2 Greek F-16s and 2 German Eurofighters. Given the fact that it was the first time in history that such an air fight took place, we tried to learn from first hand the impressions of 341 Squadron pilots who were engaged in these scenarios.
So, as Captain K. Pazaras (a pilot with more than 1300 flying hours in the F-16s and 3 participations in ELITE ) mentioned to HAF characteristically:
“The air battle missions against the Eurofighter were a very positive experience for us. We had to face a type of aircraft with tremendous manoeuvrability and agility, both in dogfight and low speed, demonstrating an excellent capability of nose authority and, of course, demonstrating the advantages of its two engines increased power. You can understand immediately its difference from relevant engagements with 3rd generation aircraft. In many respects, the Eurofighter is an airplane… to admire in the air battle! Eurofighter brought me about the same feeling when in the past I was flying the A-7 against the F-16!”.On the same line was also the impression of another Greek pilot, Captain G. Mihelis, who stood against the German Eurofighters having more than 1000 hours on the type:
“It seems that (the Eurofighter) is an excellent aircraft in air battle. Of course, it is very difficult to face it in a dogfight, while it carries very good radar with long distance detection, releasing it from ground stations or airborne radar support requirements. The above in conjunction with the very good aerodynamic characteristics of Eurofighter, especially in low speed, its overpowered engine that in dry power (without afterburner) allows the fighter to surpass the Mach, constitute an airborne opponent who practically was requiring special effort and abilities from our side in order to face it effectively”.Captain N. Printzios, without questioning the excellent impression made to the Greek pilots in their air fight against the two Eurofighters of Luftwaffe, expressed another parameter of this air fight, as he noted that:
“The relatively limited space we had in ELITE to move both in the horizontal and vertical plane, did not allow us to separate twenty to thirty miles in order to operate better. Consequently, in 1vs1 it is very difficult to face the Eurofighter. However, we have not tried bigger formations, for example 4 vs 2 with possibility to implement certain tactics, thus I cannot prejudge the outcome. In this specific case we have faced for the first time the Eurofighter in dogfight, that was something never happened before”…
Antonis Tsagaratos on exercise ELITE, Germany, July 2008, in the Hellenic Air Force Yearbook 2008
gregThe trial simply won’t be fair in such cases. It would be like an Indian pilot tried in Pakistan or the other way around.
It is not the same thing my dear friend.
Had the turkish pilot presented himself and produce all the evidence his government claims, he would have been acquitted. At least his embassy knows that very well. Trust me, on that.
But then again, he choose not to :rolleyes:
Still the verdict is appealable. Even if he gets arrested, he reserves the right to revise his trial into the appellate. Until then he wont be prisoned.
gregAny photos?
Does it actually …fly?
gregFirst, the incident happened in the international air space…Second, Turkish flight has been intercepted by HAF. Therefore, it was Greek pilot’s responsibility to apply safe interception rules which was clearly stated by ICAO.
There was no dogfight or harrasment from Turkish flight…It was an attempt by Greek flight to buzz the Turkish flight, but Greek pilot made a fatal mistake of judging his closure rate and hit the Turkish F-16 from behind…He should have been in a safe distance from Turkish flight instead of trying to harras them…If you ask me, Turkish goverment should sue Greek goverment to have their lost F-16 block-50 replaced…
Then my dear sahin why didnt your pilot attended the trial and defend himself?
gregThe Turkish Pilot 1st LT (THK) Halil Ibrahim was sentenced into 4 years in prison today by a Greek court, as found guilty for the death of Flight Lieutenant (EPA) Konstantinos Iliakis
during an interception south-west of Isle of Karpathos on May 23, 2006.
The 37 years old pilot according to the charges, was harassed from the Turkish pilot who attempted a violent maneuver which lead to the mid air collision.
The incident happened during an interception of 2 Turkish F-16 that had invade the Hellenic air space, escorting a turkish F-4 recon. fighter, in their illegal root towards the isle of Crete.
It goes without saying that 1st LT Halil Ibrahim was convicted in absentia.
greg😎 No prombem Yperiona 😎
gregOk lets not ruin the rafale thread for this particular debate so folks.
Will the Greeks get F 35 in future. This question, I think has the most relevance to their acquisition. It don’t make sense for them to get F 16s now if they cannot upgrade. ?
I am afraid so.
The question is when and how many.
Most possible scenarios would be either
1. buy 40 EF now and 40 F-35 post 2018, or
2. Get 40 F-16 now and participation into the F-35 program to get more F-35 and much sooner.
Pls note that the above is my humble and personal opinion.
gregPolitically speaking, for us having France as alternative aircraft source was always important because we have traditionally good relations with France (Francois Mitterand had personal friendship with our PM Karamanlis – the uncle of the current PM – during the 1967-74 junta, when Karamanlis was living in Paris and Mitterand gave him his jet to go to Greece in 1974 when the junta fell and also supported the entrance of Greece in the ECC of the time. Even before him De Gaulle was a supporter of Greece and was advicing for entrance in ECC as a future goal that Greece should have. Also, the Mirage F1 was proved lethal over the Aegean against F4E and the Mirage2000 also gave some specific advantages in flight characteristics and weapons (airborne Exocet, SCALP). I guess it’s not a coincidense that Sarko isn’t very fond of Turkey…
So, i am not happy to think that gradually there won’t be a french link in HAF. From the european consortium politically there are no gains either. Britain and Italy are proturkish, Germany is neutral, Spain doesn’t care about such things.
There are some EF fans in greek fora, that also blatantly antifrench and can’t find a single positive think about the Mirage. They complain they were more expensive in everything, from spare parts to missiles, that they don’t get updated often, etc. But they don’t say also that it was a plane that could look the F16 in the eyes, that gave us access to weapons that Americans were refusing to (US even pressured France in not giving us SCALP, but France did). And also the other “rumours” in fora, that the Mirage2000, have proved structurally much more resistent than the F16 B30 of the same time.
Even now, the 2000-5 is said to be very deadly in BVR with MICA and very sneaky with the IR version. In WVR of course, it will have trouble in the future without a helmet. But even for their BVR and EW suite (which has been praised in more defence magazines) and the ability to launch SCALP, they ‘re worthy.
The end of an era… Sad.
Τα εν οίκο ουκ εν δήμο
gregOr, the other forum member, quotes HAF’s Chief Yagos saying his preference is the Rafale. That’s goes against the “Rafale sucks” quoting from other forum members with pilots as sources. So, who is the best source? If the F16 is selected, what must i think for the credibility of all these “sources”?
Pls do not account me with things I never wrote. Not even indirectly.
Phrase like the “Rafale sucks” was never used or even implied by ANYONE up until now.
I trust more the specialized magazines. The EF is better than the Rafale in a battle between them, that i believe. That between the 2 versions that we are offered, the EF is the most cost/effective compared to the Rafale against the F35, this for me is yet to be proved. The F35 isn’t supposed to be a star in agility anyway, the BVR part concerns me more.
Truly I do not wish (nor was ever my intention) to turn this thread into a Rafale vs Typhoon debate. If you agree lets move here:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66052
People writing into this thread wouldnt like it.
Dear enthusiasts. Final ranking, is made with a mathematical formula. A bit like this:
1,2xAESA radar + 0.8X thrust/weight ratio …. You want Rafale to win? You make the 1,2 to 2. You also fix the coefficient for electrooptical intruments for example to boost the Rafale even more. With such a modification the EF is “burnt”.
WELCOME TO REALITY DEAR ENTHUSIASTS !
Again if you are referring to me I must remind you the discussions we had.
Mathematical formulas may be good for air forces like KLu or other central european ones, but in our country we actually have air force pilots who risk their lives every day, in an effort to keep the Aegean clear.
Probably we could respect their opinion more than an accountant’s formula.
ps Posters in this thread would never accept what you take for granted, that the EF is a better dogfighter than the rafale. I strongly recommend to take this debate here:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66052
Or else I really do not wish to continue this travesty.
gregIf *i* had a direct contact in HAF or in a political office, i wouldn’t say so, for my own reasons.
Neither had I, for a couple of years. But…..
So, all i say, is, that between rumours from inside sources and final decision, there can be a difference.
Yes but there is a point where all this rumors, and (possible) inside info, becomes a reality. And we are at this point.
The same, i try to say to the people here. Because EF fans, won’t EVER say a single good word about the Rafale or “positive” rumours about it. Only the negative ones. Rafale fans won’t say anything positive about the EF and so on.
You and I are neither. I suppose we both want the best for ΕΠΑ.
Which is fine and i don’t doubt the EF is better in dogfight or in air combat compared to the Rafale. But the EF isn’t the point in this thread.
If you read this thread carefully you will understand. It is like Greece Vs Turkey. It is impossible to say something for one without referring to the other, no matter good intentions.
My position is known, i would have prefered a “Swiss-type” evaluation of all contenders in Greece and specifically against VLO targets to see how they can perform, because we have specific needs. But that would limit the space for political manouvers for the gov. With the current economic data, either the Rafale or EF as “F16 killers” only is a luxury that we can’t afford.
Norway had a nice evaluation. Check out their noses now:dev2:
The problem is. With the same money, and long term cost, give the current EF version that they give us and that most of its life the EF will pass it against F35, is it worth it to buy today EF or with the same money to buy more F16? For me, buy more F16s.
F-16 cannot handle F-35s, and I bet even 35s cannot handle 35s!!
Anyway nice to hear from you again. I always respect your views.
gregWelcome back Yperiona
Also, please understand, that when it comes to arms deals, you must distinguish “NEWS” from “RUMOURS” and journalist rumours from “my uncle who is the PM’s best friend told me” rumours that appear in fora and blogs. Every time you hear something, ask if it is news or rumour and then the source. Only THEN you will have an idea of who is telling what.
Interesting point. But tell me something, if you had a direct contact with AF pilots and get a clear opinion from them, would you call this a rumor or news.
Actually it is neither. It is a strong point that at the end of the day seamed to made all the difference.
As I already told you, Whenever I spoke to pilots the feeling I was getting was close to this:
http://www.defencenet.gr/forum/index.php?topic=9446.msg145877#msg145877
:eek::eek::eek::eek:
This cannot be a coincidence, can it?
ps. You may translate it if you like , but be aware, this might cause a hart attack to a couple of friends around.
gregNeuron, Err when is it due ? And at what cost ? Buy Rafale or EF and S 400s.
Best bet against F 35 😀
Rafales are out of the Greek contest, for reasons I posted.
As Hyperion posted this is NOT official but that doesnt makes any difference.
Simply put the AF doesnt want it
gregSurely the Turks are going to get F 35. If they can somehow deny you the same, Then what option would you take.
Raptor is not for sale. PAK FA may be ? not realistic either.
Then the bst bet is EF or Rafale I would say. I doubt F 16s doing that well against F 35s.
True.
My best pick , would be 40-60 EF with CaptorE and meteors, and 200 pieces of whatever comes from the nEUROn program.
The combinations seems much more promising than a pure F-35 fleet.
gregTurkey would have something to say about you getting F 35. They are a partner nation.
To be honest, I sincerely hope she does.
And let the turk get all the 35s!
But then again Turkey is not that powerfull :diablo:
I am almost sure that at the end we also going to get the bucket..:mad:
gregI disagree respectfully. Tactics is one thing, but the most important factor is knowing your plane’s advantages and limitations, and the opponents. Tactics need to be adapted to the strenghts of your plane and to the deficiencies of the opponent to begin with.
I’m quite confused though. Yes Rafale f1 pilots came from cruisaders, but I thought you were talking about the F2 pilots on that particular quote. Those have air to ground background as the Rafale first replace jaguar squadrons in the AdlA. Hence the lousy bvr tactics I suppose. A good spanking by the greek Blk 52+ was probably a great lesson to take better advantage of their planes 😉
The scanned documents concerned the second fight. Between Rafales M F1 and RWRless F-16.
If you were more concerned in reading my posts instead of trying to lessen my credibility, you would understand.
disadvantage for whom? I think you’re unclear? Rafale posed problems to the F16 or Rafale were at disadvantage against the F16?
disadvantage for both.
Makes sense… but Kovy’s arguments about trying to justify the purchase of more vipers due to lack of funds makes sense too don’t you think? These times I have a hard time believing Greece could afford a number of Rafales, let alone a number of EFs.
Well, not quite.
Budgets are more or less fixed.
If we go with the F-16s then that would mean that we also go for much more F-35 (probably 80) and much sooner. Possibly participating into the program the Israel way.
If we go for the EFs then the F35 will be much less (40?) and post 2018.
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