Garry OwenI am interested to read your comments that suggested there are those who are “looting” wreck sites in the UK to sell items on e-bay. It would be interesting to hear more about that, Garry. Andy Saunders
Well,Andy,go to http://www.ebay.co.uk and search for “aircraft relics” or “crash relics” and you’ll see what I mean. If those parts being offered were removed during a licenced dig why do the sellers not include a copy of the licence? some of the parts offered will have been removed prior to 1986 but there have been numerous parts offered on ebay from un-licenced post 86 digs.
Garry OwenWhether the PNG Govt have a legal claim to the aeroplane under international law is debatable. This is a somewhat “grey” area it seems. That said, the USAF have abandoned all claim to aircraft lost before 1962 and say this includes aircraft of the former USAAF. That said, the MOD in the UK say that the US Govt have NOT abandoned title to these wrecks. Equally, the MOD say that German aircraft wrecks in the UK are “…captured enemy property which has been surrendered to the Crown.” Not so, say the German Embassy in London, who state that more recently international enactments now restore such items to the Federal German Government as the “…legal successor to the Third Reich.” Equally, the MOD have previously said they are not interested in ownership issues relating to ex RAF airframes overseas but seem to now be shifting their position on this. On a worldwide basis this matter seems somewhat confused and confusing. None of this much helps Rob Greinert or the Swamp Ghost salvors, but it is surely an issue which is becoming increasingly important to recoverers, restorers, warbird owners, museums and collectors the world over. Andy Saunders
I refer to my previous post,regardless of who owns the wreckage of crashed military aircraft in the UK the crash site and any wreckage is protected under UK law(the protection of military remains act).
From your list of those who maybe affected by legislation your forgot to mention those who loot crash sites for items to sell,for instance those who sell “crash relics” on ebay….
Garry OwenWhether or not the remains of American aircraft which crashed in the UK are still US property is something of a mute point as the Protection of Military Remains Act covers all military aircraft crash sites,irrespective of nationality or who actually owns the crash site or the wreckage.
If the USAF have indeed abandoned ownership of aircraft which crashed during WW2 legally ownership would then go to the owner of the land on which the crash occured as he is in possession of the wreckage,however the site would still be protected under the PoMRA and if anyone(including the landowner) “tampered with,damaged,moved,removed or unearthed” any part of the aircraft he would be guilty of an offence under the act.
In regard to “Swamp Ghost” I am not familiar with the legal system on PNG but it would appear that their “War Surplus Materials Act” is similiar to the PoMRA here.
Garry OwenHi Adrian,
If you can get a copy of the BAAC magazine “Aviation Archaeologist” series two,number twenty five it has the full story according to the “Boston Havoc Preservation Trust”.
It makes me sick just how much has been lost in recent years in the name of “aviation archaeology”,the scrapping of parts from Z2186 is just one example,there are unfortunately many more.
Garry Owenthe worst situation would be DNA tests finding that one or more of those supposedly in the grave were not there at all.
Worse still that DNA tests showed one set of remains was not present and had been dug up and reburied by some recovery group :rolleyes: . Seriously though IF it was found that only two sets of remains were buried originally(which is highly unlikely in the case of a US serviceman due to the detailed Individual Deceased Personnel File,IDPF,made at the time) surely it is better to inform JPAC of this finding so the crash site can be properly investigated(by JPAC) in the hope the MIA can be found and given a proper burial. If his remains could not be found his status would remain/be changed to Missing In Action and the site declared a grave.
Garry OwenHi Scotavia,
Even if the pilot/crew have known graves the MOD should still be informed if human remains are found. There are cases where the original burial consisted of very little,and the majority of the body is still at the crash site,in such a case it is possible the MOD will still grant a licence to dig but as is clearly stated in the Notes For Guidence of Recovery Groups if human remains are found the police and MOD must be informed immediately,and on no account should the remains be touched/moved.
Another reason the relevent authorities should be informed when remains are found is to prevent a further licence to dig being issued at some future time.
To be honest your post points out perfectly the attitude of many “wreckologists” in that they believe they know better than anyone else. There are examples of wreckologists questioning why they have been refused a licence on a particular(fatal) site when all the crew have graves,they do not stop to consider that there may be reason to believe there are still human remains present at the site.If the MOD stated that although the crew have graves there maybe human remains at the site the wreckologists would whine about giving them a proper burial in order to bring about a dig,yet obviously if a licence is granted without mention of the possibility of remains being raised and remains are then found the group just rebury them and say nothing.
There is an easy way of stopping human remains being found and reburied in the manner you describe,and that is for the MOD to stop granting licences to dig on any site where a fatality occured. I know several families who lost loved ones in crashes in the UK who would be in favour of such a move.
I presume that the group you refer to had a licence to dig on the sites where human remains were found? and would it be safe to say that even though remains were found they still continued with the dig and removed wreckage from the site? if this is the case they failed to follow the guidance laid down by the MOD.
Other questions arise from this,when the group found human remains did they consider that they may have the wrong site? again this has happened in the past,and did they consider the possibility(however slim) that there may have been an extra person on board the aircraft who does not appear in the accident report? If either of these scenarios proved to be the case the group would be denying a missing aircrewman a proper burial.
Sadly the examples you mention of groups reburying human remains are not unique. In 1998 I spoke to a member of a group(who were at the time part of the BAAC) who told me how they carried out a dig on a particular Magister crash site and found the pilots legs,and then reburied them.
Now you have stated publicly that you have knowlidge of these remains being reburied you really are obliged to report all you know to your local police and the MOD.
Garry OwenHi Skipper,
It really depends on several factors,how do you think the families would take this news? Have they already voiced concerns over the original burial?.
Contrary to the majority on here I would say you have an obligation to tell the families what you have found. I have been involved in researching US losses for a long time and have delt with similiar situations and I know that most families I’m in contact with would prefer to know. If you would like to send me a PM I can give you further information which may help you. I take it the documents to which you refer are the IDPF’s?.
Regarding the comment about a “recovery group” re-burying human remains,this is both illegal AND immoral,what gives them the right to play god in this way? I’d suggest that rather than doing it out of any sort of respect for the men or their families it was done to cover the groups own backs.
Garry Owen2. Amateur “Aviation Archaeologists” (read “Anoraks with Shovels”) are held in much higher regard by the great unwashed than real qualified professionals.
I agree that this is unfortunately the case,but this is largely because the great unwashed don’t have a clue what most “aviation archaeologists” actually do,or for that matter the difference between the smash and grab methods they use and the methods used by proper archaeologists.
Garry OwenThere have been several cases in the UK of human remains being found at a crash site by “wreckologists” and the authorities not being informed.
Many people are unaware of what has been done in this country in the name of “aviation archaeology”,I’m not just talking about war graves being desecrated but also of the damage which has been done to crash sites and the information which has been lost. One only has to ask where all wreckage recovered since the 1970’s has gone to get an idea of the scale of destruction which has been brought to crash sites.
I am not against crash sites being dug,but as suggested earlier in this thread there needs to be a far more professional approach to the dig and recording and long term preservation of the items found. I feel that the attitude of many involved in digging crash sites is very short sighted indeed and little thought given to future historians who might want to study items from a specific site.
One only has to look at some of the items offered on ebay to realise that many regard crash sites as a source of material to sell.
Just to clear things up,the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 applies to ALL military aircraft remains in the UK and UK waters. Under the act it is an offence for anyone to “Tamper with,damage,move,remove or unearth any part of a crashed military aircraft”.
Let the flaming begin.
Garry OwenHi,
The removal of wreckage from the Sterling on Upper Commons caused a lot of upset to several local people who remembered the crash. I know it was removed by the Sterling Project but I feel it is just as important to preserve crash sites in situ and respect the wishes of those locals who remember the crash.
Garry OwenI know there were several aircrew in the US Eighth Air Force who were in their early teens.
At the moment I am reading Boy Soldiers of the Great War by Richard Van Emden(ISBN 0-7553-13038).not aviation I know but a very interesting book.
Garry OwenZ2186
Just to add a little info on the subject of the parts from Boston Z2186. The outer wing sections,inner wing sections with U/C legs,wing center section,both engines,fuselage center section and numerous smaller parts were indeed removed from the site by the now defunct “Boston Havoc Preservation Trust”. They immediately sold one of the outer wing sections for scrap,and later broke up both engines 😡
What remained of Z2186 was recently sold to persons unknown.
The interesting thing is the crash site of Z2186 is on National Trust land and they did not grant permission for anything to be removed from the crash site of Z2186. The crash site had been entered in the National Sites and Monuments Register as a site of historical interest and as far as the NT were concerned the parts were there to stay.
Boston Z2186 is a prime example of a site being cleared for a so called “restoration” only for the parts to be sold off and vanish. It would have been far better for the parts to have remained on the site as a memorial.
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