zeroIts a bit like trying to explain to an Irishman why he can’t have a garden complete with a water fountain and a tool shed because he lives on the 7th floor of a block of flats… :rolleyes:
I am no Irish, but, why he can’t have all that on a seventh floor? If he has the money and wishes to then why not? There could be other reasons, but, not what you are stating. It can definitely be done.
zerolol true, maybe thats why sukhoi has never, to my knowledge, produced any public results from simulations of its own.
May be they know that they make good planes. 😀 If they do, they will be dammed as Russian propaganda. Secondly, Russian arms market is pretty much very less conflicting with Western/US market. hey your neighbor bought f-16, counter it with our MiG-29 etc.
I always wondered if Russians got hold of US/Western planes like vice versa has happened. Do, they have data on western/Us a/c’s to simulate? have Russians ever got hold of a F-16 or F-15 or F-18 or Mirage or anything else?
zeroAbhimanyu,
Canceling MMRCA and FGFA will achieve drastic reduction in our combar Sqns when we want to increase them.
LCA is a light fighter. It is no MMRCA. Even if Tejas Mk2 will have MMRCA specs, its not yet proven. Let them find an engine first. Electronics and integration will be less problem than the engine problem. Look at the Al-55 case, has it expedited the IJT? There is a sea of difference between intended and happening. FGFA and MCA deployment difference may not be just 3 years, it could drag on, what will we do then? Buy FGFA with a higher cost when we do not have bargaining power?
zeroSukhios always loose in simulations 😉
zeroScoot,
u missin da point here.
MCA and PAK FA have different time dimension. Secondly, PAK FA was drafted when India and US were not so close. The nuke deal happened few months ago. Yankemarica is yet to be fullee trusted. Lets first see how MMRCA goes. IAF can’t fill bases with Pak FA or LCA alone. It needs MMRCA. Its a hi-lo mix.
PAK-FA is still needed against Australian f-35 even if mention of India in Kangaroo white paper was sort of red herring. But the kangaroo is equipping against India. Geo-politics can change anytime. Say India nook tests again…… or tries to protect Indians in Fiji again……
Late or expensive, India is paying its price by not being proactive. Secondly, 5th gen is actually expensive. You should check the price of a generation leap. Its always expensive.
While you did have point that there has to be a 2nd thought, but, what has been done for years cannot be undone unless there is an viable alternative. US and Russia are the only one who posses relevent tech to make a 5th gen system.
zeroWell, in that case someone out there needs a kick up the backside to start thinking a bit in advance. People in the outer world have known about the engine issues for a long time now, and only had the project managers considered this issue in time, may be the engine would not have been such a big problem. And instead of spending $10+ billion on improting an entire jet from a foreign country, all India would have needed was engines. By 2013/14, LCA would have been quite a mature system. Bear in mind this argument is based on the assumption that LCA is indeed a 4.5 gen fighter.
Expensive hedge.
OK.:)
Who’s butt you are going to kick? Politicians are same everywhere. You don not understand the development in this case. IAF wanted proof of concept for the design. It was handled by ADA. Then there was engine. They wouldn’t create a testing facility for it. It has to go to Russia to understand that there is a problem. Then it comes back and then tinker and then go back to Russia. Project Managers did try. Even after telling that they need a new engine, the politicians are still busy. Project managers cannot import engines. Then IAF wanted different engine. One thing better be late than sorry.
And “all India needs is an engine” is too simplistic when you consider the task at hand. This engine was to be tad bit unique as it was supposed to be “Flat Rated.” Show me the nearest example of this anywhere in the world for current combat a/c.
Hedge is supposed to be cheap?
zeroOn what basis can you make such a statement?
Lets say LCA is a 4.5 gen machine indeed and MK.2 would be 4.5+ gen. If this was so, then while it makes sense for India to share $8 billion (or whatever) for Pak-FA/FGFA as it would help them to develop MCA, where do you fit $10+ billion for a 4.5+ gen MMRCA? How many 4.5/4.5+ gen LCA (if that’s what they are) indigenous LCA could India buy for the same amount of money?
Regarding 6th gen, are you sure anything would be par on timetable? I mean USA is already producing things like MQ-9, and by 2030 (when indigenous MCA is likely to come out) autnomous UCAV or some other top notch fighter a generation better than F-22 would already be out there. Now I personally cant imagine a 6th gen Indian fighter around that time.
We do not have an engine for LCA. That’s the issue. MMRCA will fill in squadron numbers. You can’t field just green LCA’s alone, they need proven systems. its not just money.
MCA still needs design, technical in puts. Hence FFGA is needed. Another issue is that FFGA is a hedge.
US is a technology leader. So, lets count it out for time lines. India needs it for the time lines that its enemies will have a Six Gen. India does has a MQ-9 like program. Please google, you could even Binge it.
zeroFGFA might be the last fighter A/C India will co-build. With LCA the 4.5 gen has been leap forged. MCA will be a catch up and 6th gen will be on par with the world timetable.
zeroRolls-Royce awarded $80 million contract for C-130J engines
Rolls-Royce, has been awarded a contract worth $80 million by the U.S. Air Force to provide AE 2100D3 spare engines and parts to power Lockheed Martin C-130J military transport aircraft for the U.S.Air Force, U.S. Marine Corps, the Royal Norwegian Air Force and the Indian Air Force.
zeroEven Amerikans chose U-Ropean refuellers. 😮
zeroWrong place sorry, delete.
zerozeroHolbrooke said, “I am told by F-16 pilots that F-16s with modern avionics can be used as a counter-insurgency tool, but quite honestly, it requires very sophisticated training. They did use aging F-16s in the battles in Swat.” In other words, the planes did not have up-to-date avionics, and the pilots were not properly trained.
I understand it differently.
Now regarding F-16’s sparing use, to be honest Im not aware of that, and hopefully you would be able to provide me with some reliable information on that vis-a-vis the recent Swat issue. I know from Kaiser Tufail’s article, that they were sparingly used during Kargil tension (due to limited spared parts), but those sanctions are not there anymore. But to tell you the truth I have no idea how often F-16s are being used right now.
I do not have ready reconer. I did read about PAF flying f-16 less for preserving airframe life.
Here is some interesting stuff on F-16 PAF
Pakistan presently operates forty-six F-16A/B aircraft. Thirty-two of these aircraft remain from the original forty aircraft that Pakistan bought in the 1980s. Since 2005, the USAF has transferred fourteen Excess Defense Article (EDA) F-16A/B aircraft to Pakistan. The current Pakistan F-16 program is composed of three Letters of Offer and Acceptance (LOAs). The first LOA providing for the production of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft is underway: four aircraft will be ready in June 2010; four aircraft in August 2010; five aircraft in October 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010; and, one aircraft in December 2011. It is important to note that none of the aircraft will be delivered to Pakistan until the Administration ensures that Pakistan is in compliance with the LOA security notes, and the Administration has so advised Congress.
The second LOA provides for munitions and includes: five hundred AIM-120C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM); seven hundred and fifty Mark-84 2000 lb General Purpose bombs; seven hundred BLU-109 2000 lb Penetrator bombs; five hundred Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) tail kits; sixteen hundred Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit (EGBU) kits; and assorted bomb fuzes and support equipment. These weapons will be available for delivery to Pakistan beginning in June 2010.
The third LOA provides for the Mid-Life Update (MLU) of their current fleet of forty-six aircraft: four of these aircraft are in Fort Worth undergoing Trial Verification Installation, which is part of the MLU program. Under the MLU LOA, Pakistan is procuring Falcon STAR structural upgrade kits for the thirty-two original F-16A/B aircraft and thirty-five MLU avionics upgrade kits for the current fleet (including three of the recently transferred EDA aircraft). There is an option on the contract to procure eleven additional MLU avionics upgrade kits for the remaining eleven aircraft. Pakistan has not yet exercised this option, but plans to do so at a future date.
The Falcon STAR structural upgrade is very similar to that provided to other F-16A/B customers. Falcon STAR replaces critical structural components in the F-16 required to return the A/B airframe to a structural life of 8,000 spectrum hours. Falcon STAR is required to keep the original thirty-two PAF F-16A/Bs air worthy.
The Pakistan MLU avionics upgrade kits are being designed to provide the Pakistan Block 15A/B aircraft with many of the same capabilities as the new Block 52 F-16s that the PAF is procuring. The MLU kit replaces most of the 1980s avionics in the Block 15s with newer, advanced avionics systems from the Block 52 F-16s. The MLU upgrade kits will include: APG-68(V)9 radar; Embedded GPS/INS (EGI); Link-16 data link; APX-113 Advanced Identify Friend or Foe (AIFF); Color Cockpit with Color Moving Map; ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pod; Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) Cockpit and External Lighting; Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS); Reconnaissance Pod capability; improved avionics systems; JDAM capability; EGBU capability; AIM-120 AMRAAM capability; and AGM-84 Harpoon capability. While many of the avionics systems and capabilities are common with the new Block 52s and the MLU, some significant differences remain between the MLU F-16 Block 15s and the new PAF Block 52s: there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are no engine improvements; and, there are no improvements to payload capacity. Overall, the MLU program will extend the service life of Pakistan’s original F-16 aircraft and very significantly increase the capability of the Pakistan Air Force to conduct Close Air Support and night precision attack missions. I would like to highlight that in parallel with the significant improvement in weapon accuracy gained by precision guided munitions like JDAM, there is the potential to dramatically reduce collateral damage and civilian casualties.
Regarding program status, the first four MLU aircraft are undergoing work in Fort Worth, Texas now. The USAF schedule for delivery of these aircraft is December 2011. The delivery dates for the remaining aircraft are being refined due to the recent stop work.
zeroWhile, I don’t understand the whole logic in the arrangement. It not a space issue with the APG-79 or the radome itself. As most aircraft mount the IRST Systems above and behind the nose……Just look at the Flanker, Fulcrum, Typhoon, or F-16E.
That said, I don’t understand why the Super Hornet didn’t use a something like the F-14D’s IRST Set-Up???? As it takes no space at all and has a good field of view…..
Regardless, as I today I haven’t heard a good explanation for the Super Hornet Set-Up????
In case you haven’t heard.
BTW Scoot,
The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs believes that the F-35 will probably be last American manned combat aircraft. 😉
zeroWhat he (Holbrooke) says is that currently the capability and training does not exists. Infact, some ex-pilots from PAF have said that F-16 are used sparingly and there is less training. Nothing to be defensive about. Ackerman asked a question. But the reply is from Holbrook.
Jets have been flown regularly in SWAT. But, the point is how accurate? IIRC Kargil war, the M2K’s were one of the most successful planes with modifications. ATLIS and Paweways are in PAF. But, again since the flying on f-16 is less, training is bad. Operation Black Thunderstorm, F-16 did perform.
IMO, what is being said is right in a holistic way.
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