And allied naval forces during the 1st Gulf War said they could see the Nighthawk on their radars.

But at what ranges?

Only people without a clue think stealth aircraft are actually invisible to radar.

All stealth does is drastically reduce detection ranges, but get a stealth plane close enough to a power radar and it will show up.

I’m sorry, isn’t the thread basically talking about potential export sales of J-20 ? I’m not talking about what you think if J-20 will be exported, but talking ‘in-line’ with the thread topic of potential export of J-20. In which I said that China still have difficulty to break in to ‘non-traditional’ defense market for it’s relatively higher tech defense products.

I’m sorry, but that’s just plain silly. Just because the thread is named J20 exports does not mean all who post in here has to ‘accept’ that the J20 will be exported.

I have given a very detailed explanation as to why I think the J20 won’t be offered for export, and you are going to have to do a lot better than ‘the title of the thread said so’ to convince anyone that it will be made available.

You can’t expect to ask for Hard Effidence (if you mean quantitative data) for how market perceptions based. Market perception is the matter of building ‘trust’. Building ‘trust’ need more effort to build and not just flaunting around saying to a pottential customer I’ve a good track record on reliability and after sales. You have to prove it, in which one customers satisfaction standard will not be necessary same with other ‘potential’ customers standard, especially if that potential customers still have ‘trust’ issue with you.

You were the one who came up with this previously completely unheard of suggestion of bad after sales support for Chinese weapons, and when challenged on that, not only could you not provide any support whatsoever, you are trying to spin this into me ‘flaunting around’ and wants me to disprove your completely baseless assertion? That’s just plain silly to the point of being laughable.

And before you bring out your ‘trump card’ of ‘well I talked to this guy at a show/exhibit and he said bla bla bla’, please bare in mind that you are not the only one to go to shows and exhibits and talk to relevant people ‘in the know’ there. Many traditional dedicated defense correspondents and analysis make it part of their jobs to go to these shows and talk to anyone and everyone they can.

Yet none of these people have ever reported bad after sales support for Chinese weapons before, which makes your claim all the more questionable.

If you want to make a point, that’s your choice, but if you want anyone to believe it, you must be able to support it better than ‘I talked to this guy and he said’, because lets face it, anyone can do that and put whatever the hell they want after ‘he said’. The only way we can tell the real deal from people talking out of their butts is if there is some back up or very good logical argument for something. None of which you have been able to provide. So please excuse me if you don’t take your completely baseless claims as fact.

Well since after sales is a big factor in deciding sales potential, I do not think this is off topic. But if it is deemed so, I will drop it.

You don’t believe in the market Perceptions..well it’s up to you..you want to believe that China Defense products already at par with Russian and Western products..it’s also up to you.

Well thats entirely the problem. You come here proclaiming what the ‘market perceptions’ are without a single shred of evidence and expect everyone to simply accept it?

All I have asked for from the very start is any sort of evidence or back up to support this previously completely unheard of suggestion of bad after sales support on Chinese weapons.

However I have a privelage to talk with some official on Armed Forces of few SEA countries (which of course will not be disclosed by me in this forum)..that reflect their doubt of the long term reliability of China’s defense products.

Well that may be fine and true, but considering I have no clue who you are, you would excuse me if I want some collaborative evidence from a reputable source before I accept that as fact. Just as you would demand some back up if someone else came here and said they talked to certain defense officials and were told the exact opposite.

You say that China will make different product according to the wallet of the buyer.

Where exactly did I say this?

Well tell me if China already make significant impact on breaking to ‘Rich’ non-traditional market ?

That’s completely irrelevant to after sales support. Besides, I have already explained that the PLAAF never allows China’s best to be exported and have given you examples where this has cost export contracts in the past.

If the PLAAF allowed the J10B to be exported and started taking advanced orders for the J20 now, I’m pretty sure China could easily break into ‘rich’ non-traditional markets.

The whole point is that China is ‘rich’ enough that it doesn’t have to offer its very best for export as it does not need the cash. It would be nice, but not important enough to risk national security over.

If it’s still less than 5%..then it’s not significant break. And how do you expect they (the richmarket) will buy J-20 (with BTW is the main topic in this thread).

Well my whole point is that the J20 will never be up for sale, so of course its not going to break into any markets, I have no idea where you got the idea I would think the J20 would be offered for export at all.

F-15 tailhook

and wouldn’t the JL-15 be a better aircraft for carrier landings? straighter wings, double engined.

Considering the redesigned the plane to take away the ventricle stablizers, it looks like a carrier conversion.

You think the Chinese are going to be open and up front about complaints? I sure don’t.
Must say though if their military goods are anything like thier commercial goods then there is alot of room for improvement, to say the least.

So it was the Russians that told everyone about their bad after sales service?

Please try to at least think through what you write before you post.

Your attempt to link in commercial goods is as nonsensical and wrong as it is irrelevant and off topic.

Pakistan , Egypt and Sri Lanka can be catagorize as China’s Traditional market. My comment was to answered Hammer questions whether China’s products can do well in China’s ‘non-traditional’ export market.

So what, you are saying those countries don’t care about quality and after sales support? If so, please, lets see some back up. If not, how is that any support for your so far completely baseless assertion that China has bad after sales service?

Please tell me if China’s defense products already doing well in the Big ‘non-tradtional’ market like Brazil or Turkey for instances ?? If China still have difficulty to enter Small ‘non-traditional’ market like Indonesia…can it’s going to do well in the ‘Richer’ defense market like Brazil or Turkey..??

Again, what’s this got to do with after sales?

And I’m simply said that present record show China still have difficulty breaking to ‘new’ market outside China’s traditional ones, and one of the reasons is the perception from some of those market on China’s quality and after-sell reliability.

I have explained one of the main limiting factors for Chinese arms sales already. And once again, you keep bringing up this ‘perception on after-sell reliability’, but where is the evidence for these ‘perceptions’? I have not heard of any complaint about after sales, and you sure as well hasn’t provided any evidence.

At the end of the day, defense ministers will base their purchase decisions on facts and not the baseless perceptions of some internet nobody.

Well, if you go for only a2a and basic config one can not expect PLAAF to get it before 2014-2017. Add a few years and you end up maybe a few years around IAF gets PAKFA.

What? For the J20? 2014-17 is not possible. They might get a trials regiment by 2017-19 time, which is what the PLAAF head said iirc.

They will probably still need a few years after that before work can begin on any J20-lite.

And the relationship between J7 to J20 is very very exaggerated. Just see when F7P was bought. Somewhere 1988! They now have 18 block52 almost operational.I read somewhere they will officially setup a squadron near in the future. They have operational 3-4 Ereiye. Just tell me how many nations have that high tech? They will improve JF17. They will get FC20 (what that might be…). I think posters should do first a good inventory check before making such statements that PAF moves from F7 to J20. I do not know much compared to many posters but there is a level of basic knowledge.

I didn’t say it, so don’t bite my head off. 😉