plawolfIt define their function of a one-way-mission, i think they would be put to best use simply by absorbing missiles from defending fighters, allowing a 2nd wave of Chinese fighters to pick off the now depleted American fighters, and allowing an undisturbed attack on the CBG, but those J-6 are a bit short on range for this,
and Chinese still need the equal of SOSUS to know where and when to launch strike.
The manned J6 may be short ranged. But since these birds are on a one-way trip and don’t need to worry about having fuel to dogfight and such, their range should be more than doubled.
I am sure someone looked at all those J6s about to go to the scrapyard and thought this would be a good idea. But to implement this, you need to put in a remote control system in each aircraft. In addition, you need a large number of ground controllers and control modules to guide these things. On top of that, you have the maintenance costs of trying to keep all those increasingly old airframes airworthy.
At the end of the day, that comes up a to a not inconsiderable sum.
With 197 JH7/JH7As each able to carry up to 4 C802/3 missiles, even half the fleet going in would put out more missiles than a USN CSG would have SM2s to defend with.
Factor in the new H6 cruise missile carriers and Su30s and the air force alone can have a very high chance of taking out a CSG in a single strike package.
Factor in surface (type 022s) and subs and the PLA should have a decent chance against up to 3 CSGs, if they can find them.
If the USN carriers can stay undetected, they are golden. But if they are found and located long enough for the PLA to organize a strike package, then the PLA can spam far more missiles than a CSG can handle.
There is simply no need for such a cobbled together approach with unmanned J6s.
If they were to do this, using old J7As would be far more useful.
Send the first wave in all unmanned. Next time send in more drones, but have some manned late block J7Es flying with them.
The enemy would have cottoned on to the J7s being drones by that point, and their fighters will probably ignore them, letting the surface SAMs deal with them while they focus on the manned PLAAF second wave.
Manned J7s would have as good a chance as any of getting with WVR without suffering any losses. And if they do get stuck in, it will in all likelihood massively mess with the enemy BVR game plan, giving the PLAAF second wave a much high chance of winning the BVR fight and mopping up what is left in WVR.
plawolfI bet the engines end up being D-30 equivalents, built for high sustained speeds and not high efficiency.
What are you betting? Seems like easy money to me. :rolleyes:
plawolfWhere’d you get that information.
He eyeballed it based on wheel size. Simples. :rolleyes:
plawolfI don’t mean to be disrespectful Deino, but you should probably just ignore it. It’s not like any other discussions are happening in this thread right now anyways…
But sometimes silence is golden.
When you open a thread expecting to find new photos or news about a plane, but instead see nothing but the same pointless back and forth bickering, it can get pretty annoying.
plawolfI suppose a picture of J-20 with landing gear out and drogue chute cylinder retracted would disprove that?
What benefits would such a system provide anyway? Such a layout should only be on the prototypes I imagine.
The J10 definitely have the same feature with it’s drag chute.
I think it is a standard PLA requirement that it’s planes have drag chute, as every modern Chinese fighter had one.
The benefits of the drag chute would be shorter landing distance to allow fighters to be landed at smaller bases with shorter runways; extra safety measure to help stop the plane rapidly if required; allowing for similar stopping distances in all weather conditions, especially in difficult conditions such as wet runways or frozen runways etc; but the biggest advantage would be greatly decreased logistical costs.
The brakes on fighters are pretty expensive and gets used up pretty damn quick if they are the only thing slowing a plane down.
However, if the bulk of the slowing down process is handled by a drag chute, you would need to use the brakes a lot less, so would greatly increase the life expectancy of aircraft breaks, thus saving costs. It’s the same reason why USN pilots landing at naval air bases that have arrestor wires set up will use their hook to slow down instead of using the breaks
plawolfThe Americans have sold to both sides..though they typically offer India the better systems.
It is unfair to put Russia in the same category..other than the J-17 engines which were rerouted through China what other big ticket item have they sold Pakistan?
As for defense deals..if you take the MMRCA there is very less difference between the capabilities of the offered aircrafts so other factors do play a role. Now if India is about to choose between the French and the Euro Fighter and if France does a high publicity deal with Pakistan then pretty much the French have shot themselves in the foot.
Now as you say there is nothing stopping them from selling to Pakistan after the deal is over but eventually they will be another big ticket competition in India and again they will be forced to not offer Pakistan something during the lifetime of that competition. So while India may not be able to stop them from selling to Pakistan atleast she can spoil the timelines in when any defense item is offered to Pakistan.
So what happens if the French bid is not the favorite?
If they have little chance of winning an Indian contract, they risk little by selling to Pakistan do they? Given a remote chance at billions compared to a certainty to get tens, or even hundreds of millions, the billions suddenly doesn’t look quite so attractive does it?
If anything, rumors that they might be offering things to Pakistan might actually improve their odds of winning, since the Indians will probably want to have a quiet word when they hear such rumors, and well, if they want favors from the French, its only natural the French would expect a little quid pro quo non?
There is even a chance all the rumors of French selling stuff to Pakistan could just be a convenient smoke screen for both parties. The French get the Indians all wound up and maybe get certain assurances or concessions from them. OTOH, the Pakistanis can use these rumors to leverage the Chinese to release better equipment for export, and/or lower the price of what they are already offering to compete with the French stuff.
plawolfI believe they went with the DSI because supercruiser is not a requirement, and the whole aerodynamic configuration would be OK for supersonic dashing, but nor for supercruiser.
Supercruise has been a stated requirement all along for the J20.
Care to explain why DSI would prevent supercruising?
plawolfNot as bold as the “berkut” but very different from F-22/JSF considering allegations of espionage from those programs. Most people were surprised because it wasn’t a direct rip off.
Only the most biased and those with poor understanding of Chinese aviation capabilities were expecting a copy. Hell, you have to know pretty damn little about aviation all together to think you can make a direct copy with some internet photos and a tiny fraction of actual technical data, which is the most China is even remotely likely to have gotten. To suggest China got all the technical data and design data for something as sensitive as the F22/F35 from hacking both vastly overestimates anyone’s cyber warfare capabilities as well as enormously belittles America’s own information security efforts and capabilities.
In such people’s eyes, China can never come up with anything advanced and capable on their own and must beg, borrow or steal the know-how.
These also tend to be the same people in the ‘tech demonstrator’ boot camp because they cannot accept China might be as advanced as all the evidence suggests and are trying to find any way to belittle or discredit what China has done.
It is quite sad really.
plawolfDo you think these few deals would be the last ? and think they will be finalised anytime soon ?
India will have more to offer to France anyday to keep it from offering weapons to Pakistan.
The point is India has never been able to muster up the leverage to impose this ‘sell to us to sell to them’ condition on anyone before, so what is stopping the likes of France from selling to India and Pakistan like everyone else is doing?
If you tried to suggest to the French they are somehow minor league compared to the Americans and Russians, chances are you will only manage to **** them off enough to make them determined to sell to Pakistan to make a point.
Even the Russians and Americans while offering weapons to Pakistan do not offer the same level of technology or equipment they offer to India.
So now its India gets offered better kit instead of ‘you sell to India or Pakistan’? You sure changed your tune quick.
As for the Russians saying no, Russia has other markets like China to sell their weapons to, and India stands more to lose (for now) in a breakdown of defense ties with Russia. Same cannot be said about French they could really do with our billions.
When was the last time China bought anything of note from Russia? Besides from China and India, who else has been a regular billion dollar buyer of Russian arms? And since when were the Russian arms industry so well off they could afford to loose India’s billions now that China’s billions have dried up?
Why would they risk loosing India’s billions by making a few measly millions selling engines to Pakistan?
Either India does not have anywhere close to the leverage and pull you lot seem to think, or the Russians have to be absolute idiots to make such a move if the Indians indeed have so much influence.
I think we all know which is true here.
As for the French, well you are missing a critical logical step.
India will only have influence to persuade the French to not sell anything to Pakistan if they stand to earn far more from Indian contracts, but that applies equally to all parties.
There is only one winner in a competition, but many competitors, so how to you keep them all happy? If the French don’t win a contract, they have nothing to loose selling anything they like to Pakistan do they?
But if you rig a competition to keep up your part of a some undertable bargain, first of all, you have compromised your own interest as you are not getting the best equipment/deal, secondly you likely just pissed off all the other competitors, as they will know if India chose a package not based solely on merit.
That applies no matter who wins any one of your competitions. So no matter who wins, everyone else is pissed off, unless the decision is based purely on merit, but in that case, your threats are totally meaningless, as are any quid pro quo offers you make behind close doors.
That is the problem with making threats you cannot back up, since the other side can easily call your bluff and turn the whole thing around against you.
So instead of you saying, ‘you either sell to India or Pakistan’, the Franch could easily turn about and say ‘either you buy our kit or the Pakistanis will’ to you. What are you going to do then?
But hey why does Pakistan need French weapons if the Chinese ones are good enough ?
There are some things China makes that are better than what they French have to offer, and there are certain things the French have that are better than what China has to offer.
If Pakistan wants to mix and match, that’s their choice. Stop trying to change the subject.
plawolfIndia always adopted this policy its nothing new. It tried its best with the Americans, May be its one of the reasons why India did not choose the F 16. It has tried to derail the RD-93 deal without success as well.
But the scenarios are different.
a. American defense companies are not in dire need of the Indian market like Europeans are because their domestic market is big enough.
b. India has little leverage over Russia and cannot play hardball with them because of the sheer number of products which we need spares from them and the number of Jvs we are involved with them.
c. Not the same in the case of cash starved French/Europeans they could really do with our money and its not really an option for them to take Pakistan millions instead of our billions.
There is already evidence as French have openly stated they won’t be selling weapons to Pakistan
So in summary, India tried to apply this policy to the Russians. Russians said ‘computer says “no”‘, and India signs a how many billion deal for PAKFA?
India tries with the Americans, new F16s for PAF and existing fleet being upgraded to Blk52 standard. India buys C17s.
No exactly a stella track record.
In fact, has there actually been a case where India has tried this and it has worked?
Even if the French don’t sell any weapons/engines to Pakistan in the meantime to not harm their chances on other deals, what exactly is going to stop them selling stuff to Pakistan after those deals are over?
If the French wins the IAF deal and/or Mistral/sub deals. What is India going to do if the French then sells stuff to Pakistan after the contracts have been signed and/or payments made? Stop buying spares and weapons?
plawolfAhh yeah? then don’t tell me, go and tell those Chinese who think that F-22 is such an aircraft: uncatchable, unbeatable and unmatchable.
I told them that air-intake F-22 aplied is curved so toughly that banned F-22 from speed beyond M2. I also told them that stealth or OL determined by attribution of material first not the angle formed go first. But who are gonna believe a Chinese in China?
Yellow hair, blue eyes, white skin can be god in China. Anything close to westen alike will be worshiped as God.
If you ask anyone who I can directly point out must be a Chinese, why J-20 is really superior, he will nothing express but tell you the J-20 is more similar to F-22, because anything that F-22 applied was already defined as the most advanced uncatchably in this world.
Let us all bow down to Emile who speaks the absolute truth and is right about everything ever, fact!. :rolleyes:
As per Emile, the F22 is rubbish and the Chinese are idiots to follow a similar approach.
But riddle me this, if you are so awesomesource and obviously knows better than the best minds at LockMart and CAC combined, why are you here raging on the interwebs instead of earning big bucks and heaps of praise working on the likes of the F35 or J20?
plawolfI…lacks full spherical MAWS coverage.
Says who?
They say seeing is believing, so behold.
And here is a close up.
And I believe that gives the J11B 360 MAWS coverage. Where did you hear this ‘MAWS in the rear hemisphere only’ claim from in the first place?
plawolfA lot of pilots take pictures he was over reacting 😉
Funny you didn’t come up with that pearl of wisdom when a Chinese pilot was accused of dangerous flying because he was caught on tape waving.
plawolfgosh, is that mirage pilot doing anything aggressive? stop trolling.
Ah, my personal fan club right on cue. Kettle, pot ring any bells? :rolleyes:
plawolfSupposedly the JH-7B/JH-XX, the jury’s still out on whether it’s authentic.
More interesting is whether it’s got “fully” stealthed with internal weapon bays, or if it’s going to lack them.
Should have left them to wonder a little longer before letting the cat out of the bag mate.
There might even have been a few praises of its design, but now everyone will just bash at how crappy it looks and is an obvious rip-off of something. Maybe the actual FA-XX, which is why people were confused in the first place. :rolleyes:
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