plawolfFirstly, as others have already pointed out, there is a huge gulf in capabilities between CAC (J10 and J20) and SAC (J8 and endless flanker re-hashes).
What more, CAC already have the J10B, JF17, J20 and numerous UAV projects ongoing. As capable as they are, with that many parallel projects running, it would be pretty amazing if they had the capacity to also work on a naval J10.
Giving SAC the naval fighter contract is also political as that gives SAC work and income to keep them going to prevent CAC from becoming a monopoly in Chinese military aviation.
With all of this in mind, it is quite possible that the PLAN might have seen the J15 as a bit of a ‘stop-gap’ measure instead of the blueprint for all future PLAN carrier fighters. If that is the case, they could have easily limited R&D funding (possibly saving it for CAC a few years down the line when they have the time and resources to start working on their naval fighter thinking they will get a better fighter for their money) to the point where a Su33 rip-off was the only viable option.
Bare in mind that SAC has been making Flanker derivatives for well over a decade now, and with the number of airframes they have pumped out, they should have a lot of experience with the type, so the J15 should be able to be made fairly quickly after the completion of the testing (which itself should also be pretty straight forward given the experience SAC has in Flankers and the fact they had a Su33 prototype to study). With the J15 being so similar to other Flanker versions operated by the PLAAF and PLANAF, they should also be able to bring down unit cost as well as enjoy a lot of saves on logistics and training.
I have a feeling that the rumored medium sized 5th gen China is planning on developing will primarily be for future PLAN carriers, since the PLAAF has the J20, and there is absolutely no need, and very likely, not enough funding for the PLA to pursue an all-stealth fighter force like the USAF.
plawolfIt’s noteworthy that the PLAAF has sent twin seat UKBs instdad of single seaters. It could well be that this might have been at the PAF’s request, so some of their pilots might have the chance to sit in and experience first hand what a flanker can do.
plawolfWell, somebody recognized it as MLG door, but since I am a Chinese, I dreamed it is a door of weapon bay, true or not, is it against your law?:p
What kind of idiot would think that’s a MLG door? Or do they just need glasses really badly? :rolleyes:
plawolfNot trying to be rude, but why does Serbia need modern fighters for? Who are they going to fight with them?
As their last war experience should have taught them, for such a small country surrounded by so many bigger, richer and more powerful ones, it really matters very little what their air force is flying. Had the Serbs had a squadron of F22s, I would dare say the overall outcome of the war would still have been the same.
With that in mind, I think they should either give up on operating fast jets altogether and just use armed trainers for air policing duties, or get the cheapest (to buy and run) option.
In that respects, the JF17 would be the best candidate. Although there are interesting videos floating around of Serbian big wigs being given a special J10 flight display, so apparently that is on the cards as well.
But personally, I think the J10 would be overkill, even the Mig29. If they the Serbs really want something 4th gen, the Gripen would be the best plane for their needs. Good performance, low operating costs and able to operate from a stretch of road. Bet they wish they have something like that back in 99.
The downsides would be cost and American engine.
Costs might not be too bad if they can get some second hand A models. The issue of American engine would be harder to resolve. Maybe they will just have to build up a good stash of spares for the engines during peace time just in case.
plawolfbecause it is the same gaddafi fans that by night takes thier sniper role to kill civilians, supporters of gaddafi can’t be free of thinking that dictatorship is the best solution “freely”
And you know all this for a fact? :rolleyes:
I guess that does make it easier to stomach the idea that people are being tortured into confessing their roles and slaughtered without a second thought after they have given their confessions.
Ever think some of those hated Gaddaffi followers might have thought similar things of the rebels and that is why they resist them and support Gaddaffi?
plawolfThe cynicisim and willingness of some to allow people to die is sad.
And I find it revulsive how quickly and easily some are to call for wholesale slaughter of other people.
I wonder if these same people would be quite so quick to demand we get involved if doing so meant our own troops would likely come back in body bags in great number or that themselves or their loved ones would need to see combat against a foe who has more than a remote change of doing any harm to their attackers.
These people initially undertook peaceful protest, only to be brutally suppressed by the regime and it’s apologists, they then took up arms to defend themselves.
How many ‘peaceful protests’ around the world have been suppressed or broken up?
It was not all that long ago when many of the nations taking part in bombing Gaddaffi now have put down protests in their own territories that could be described as ‘brutal’ or ‘unjustifiable’. Does that give any random person feeling aggrieved by those acts to pick up arms and attack police and soldiers?
There may well be advantages for some nations in supporting the “rebels,” but frankly, so what?
So do you continue to support the Rebels when they start doing the same thing you so loudly condemn the incumbent regime for going to justify your own involvement?
If these “rebels” then escalate their actions into removing the regime, by whatever means and using whatever is necessary, it is only the regime that is to blame.
Ha, since when were the objective of the armed rebels anything other than regime change?
And you do realize that by getting directly involved in supporting regime change, not only are you overstepping your UN mandate (downright going against it in most likelihood since the rebels will need to assault populated cities to oust Gaddaffi, and last I checked, they were not shy with use of MLRS against dug in defenders), but you also take part responsibility for whatever happens after the rebels sack Tripoli because your actions were fundamental in allowing that to happen.
Based on the evidence so far, we can expect a mass purge at the very least where all Gaddaffi loyalists and sympathizers (real or suspected) will be tried in kangaroo courts, if at all. There will be torture and executions on an industrial scale. You know, the kind of thing people who are not lapdogs of the west are habitually hauled in front of the ICC to face crimes against humanity trials for doing.
Reading reports from Tripoli it is quite plain that the vast majority of the population do not support Gadaffi, they are simply not keen on committing suicide by protesting versus 20mm anti aircraft weapons.
Use your intellect people!
Even a fool can see the bias dripping off of all those reports.
As I pointed out before, given the treatment of even suspected Gaddaffi loyalists as that article I linked graphically described, do you think anyone who actually supported Gaddaffi would dare let out a fart in front of all those foreign cameras once the rebels take a town or city? Yet that is something the vast majority of foreign journalists conveniently forget to consider all the while stressing how anti-Gaddaffi protestors would do dare raise their voice when reporting in the middle of huge crowds who looks to be showing genuine support for Gaddaffi.
Maybe you should take your own advice in using your intellect and not take everything you read or hear at face value?
Those who whine that the “rebels” may massacre people in Tripoli are guilty of sitting in their safe, comfortable homes with little to no threat to their safe, comfortable lives.
Presumably you are fighting shoulder to shoulder with your darling rebels then? :rolleyes:
Presumably they would have advocated the British making peace in October 1940 once the Battle of Britain was over, after all the rest had nothing to do with the Brits right?…France as a German province since 1940…
Haha, what an amusing demonstration of Godwin’s Law. Sadly, all too predictable. I guess the only reason you didn’t somehow managed to also work ‘the terrorists will win otherwise’ in there was because Gaddaffi beat you to the punch. :p
There is a saying: “once you start a job, you should finish it”
There is also a saying about not sticking your nose where it doesn’t belong. And now that we are involved, we may well be facilitating some awful acts in the near future.
plawolfWhat the vast majority of rebel fanboy journalists seem to be turning a blind eye to.
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/world/wasn+meant+like+this+free+Benghazi/4491771/story.html
Everybody harps on about how there would have been a massacre had Gaddaffi took Benghazi. That may be well and ture, but how many people have thought about what might happen if the Rebels take Tripoli? Everyone is going to hug and cheer and live happily ever after once the evil Gaddaffi has been vanquished?
plawolfWhat if rafale already delivered…:rolleyes: y:D
Then there would not been a UN backed NFZ as ‘Super Sacro’ would have vetoed any resolution to stop Rafales being spanked. Freedom fries would make a comeback and everyone in the gulf would be lining up to buy rafales. :p
Although the Brits and Americans might have set up a NFZ themselves anyways, and we might finally be able to get an answer as to which of the two eurocanards is better at AA.
plawolfYou guys realise it’s been only a couple of years since Air Forces Monthly and other combat aircraft magazines published articles on the LARAF since Libya opened its doors during LAVEX. Now, we have bombed the pants out of the LARAF and probably destroyed a good portion of their equipment. My point: No more photos of Libyan MiG’s and Mirage F1’s in future magazine articles…I cry 🙁 🙁 🙁
Well you will prob see plenty of photos of destroyed Libyan planes in the next few issues. But I’m not sure if that will make you feel any better.
plawolfDo you they are going to care about the UN mandate ?
They will do everything they can to topple Gaddaffi short of getting people on the ground.
Nobody will shed any tears if Qaddaffi lost, but it is still unwise to be too blatant in taking liberties and deliberately overstepping your UN mandate. For one thing it will make others more wary about agreeing to one next time and may demand clearer wording and thus delay possible future UN action in similar situations.
The other issue would be practicality. How would a pilot know a ammo truck from one crammed with refugees trying to flee to the rebels? If your ROE is as loose as ‘anything civilian or military moving west is fair game’ it’s only a matter of time before one of your pilots blows up something they shouldnt have and bring on a media and political sh!tstorm.
Similar thing but even more risky in supporting rebel assaults on Qaddaffi controlled population centres. It will almost be a given that there will be collateral damage in such missions. How would you explain how one of your planes managed to kill a school full of kids helping the rebels attack a city when you were supposed to be safeguarding ALL civilians?
plawolfYes and there’s another factor too. Pushing into the rebels relentlessly is probably the best strategy. The question is, what will happen if the coalition successfully manages to cut the supply route to front line Gaddafi’s troops. Soldiers with empty belly and under continuous pounding and getting short on ammunition don’t tend to be relentless. 😀 At this point the morale of Gaddafi’s Benghazi troops will be severely tested.
Bombing tanks firing on a city is one thing, but it will be a stretch to be bombing unarmed trucks driving on a road. The UN mandate is to protect civilians not help the rebels win the war.
Even if the rebels win in Bengnazi they will face the same problem and then some if they try to take population centres already controlled by pro-Qaddaffi forces. If the rebels start assaulting say Tripoli, even the most biased commentators will be hard pressed to argue how the UN mandate allows foreign air power to aid them.
As I said before, this could easily lead to another Kosovo with a stalemate and a part of the country breaking off.
As
plawolfSome Tornados. The catch is they are not RAF ones. But I don’t think these birds got all dressed up for nothing.
Crew members perform pre-flight preparations on Italian Tornado ECR fighters at the Trapani Birgi air base in the southern island of Sicily on March 18, 2011. Italy on March 18 offered the use of its air bases to impose a no-fly zone on Libya and said it could help take out Libyan radars and defence systems after the UN cleared the way for air strikes. Italy has ‘granted the use of military bases on its national territory’, the government’s press office said after an emergency cabinet meeting in Rome.
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/4792/medium/4101.jpg
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/4792/medium/597.jpg
plawolfWatching footage of Mirage 2000-5F on AlJazeera, pilots doing walkrounds etc. Aircraft loaded with three fuel pods and a heavy load of MIC-IR and MICA-EM ready for CAP.
Only footage of RAF Tornado GR4 is a very short grainy takeoff on the BBC. I presume the UKs capability of launching ALARM anti radar missiles will be prised, only Italy has a similar capability.
Gadaffi is threatening to attack targets in the med, he must be fully stocked up on his crazy pills! If he did sanction attacks on targets outside Libya it would be just the excuse to pulverise his armed forces from the air…of course I don’t know how much bottle his soldiers will show in the face of modern airpower.
Thats probably why Qaddaffi called a fake cease fire to buy his forces as much time as possible to push as far into Benghazi as possible.
Without integrated forward ground controllers calling in the strikes, it will be a hard job for pilots to figure out which units belong to which side.
Its a classic counter to superior enemy air power since vietnam – you get in close to their forces so their pilots cannot effectively target you.
Ironically the ‘no fly zone’ now means that the best chance for pro-Qaddaffi forces to stay alive would be to keep pushing into the rebels relentlessly. If they pull back, they will be slaughtered. If Gaddaffi’s propaganda people are even half competent, they will be reminding their soldiers what happened on the ‘highway of death’ when a defeated army last tried to flee western air power.
If the Rebels have any sense, they will be encouraging pro-Qaddaffi forces to surrender to give them another option.
If they get carried away and try to get some pay back, they may well end up regretting it.
As for attacking shipping in the med, well that’s plain stupid. How many nations have warships off Libya who are not participating in the no fly zone enforcement? Not to mention normal commercial shipping.
If they start shooting off AShMs indiscriminately, they could easily drag nations who were on the sidelines directly into the fighting.
plawolfGood luck to them, be safe.
Tally-ho old boy.
They are fighter pilots, you don’t send them out to ‘be safe’! You wish them Good hunting. 😉
plawolfI think the delay was because Britain and France were not expecting the resolution to pass with such a broad mandate. It was as close to a blank cheque as the UN has ever issued.
Going by past experience you would have expected the Russians and Chinese to try and get the wording watered down into a precise definition of what is and isn’t allowed.
It’s very likely the Brits and French were expecting serval rounds of negotiates and draft resolutions before one passed. They would have used that time to build up forces and pressure, like desert storm.
It would be interesting to see why this resolution passed in record time with such a broad mandate. Either promises were made behind closed doors
(such as existing oil deals will be honoured by the rebels when they take over and/or promise of reconstruction and more oil contracts afterwards etc) and/or the Russians and Chinese had a look of the situation on the ground and didn’t want to risk delaying or watering down the wording because of how precarious the rebel position was and didn’t want to get blamed if Qaddaffi wiped them out.
Now of Qaddaffi wins, it’s all on the Brits and French, and not even the most biased commentator could reasonably pin any blame on Russia or China.
The fact that RAF jets were only flying out today would seem
to support the theory that they were not expecting to be called into
action so quickly.
Had they. been ready and waiting, A-A cap and recon flights should have been flying within hours of the resolution passing.
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