What’s completely hilarious is that the Su-30MK2 is the non-secret jet, yet there are far more J-10 photos around 😀 And anyway I already gave you an export alternative to the JF-17: a single-seat L-15 derivative.

I don’t have the specs of the two at hand, but IIRC, they are not in the same class, with the JF17 looking like the far better fighter.

It also likely drew very heavily on the work done on the original Super-7 project.

Did the Super-7 get all that far before it got put on the back burner? Also, the advanced design features on PT04 were never on the Super-7 model I seen.

IF it sells. My real issue with the JF-17 really involves domestic use though, so if the JF-17 was perhaps an export-only project then it’d make more sense to me maybe.

I’m hoping that the PLANAF gets the Chinese FC1s if any are bought for the PLA. That way the navy gets something much better then the J7 and Q5 that can complement the J8s in the fighter role to support the JH7s and MK2s, and the PLAAF doesn’t get saturated with too many fighter types. Besides, it looks like a pretty decent fighter, and the PLA can use them to beef up numbers in the strait better then J7s so its not like they will be white elephants with no use. Worse comes to worse, they can buy mostly twin seat models and use them for training.

The discussion has move away from the thread’s title but I think F-15s for Taiwan is a good idea. F-15s are a better match for what the mainland can throw against Taiwan than F-16s and Mirages.

Why F15s is not such a hot choice for Taiwan has already been argued for and against before. You’ll have to look in the past posts for them, but if you have anything new to add, it would be a welcome shift back on topic.

Well if you could construct a logical argument I may be able to understand what you’re going on about, but you’re all over the place.

Thats because I wasn’t ranting, I was replying to different people regarding different issues.

If the PRC has no intention of invading then they are not a threat, if they are a threat then they could invade, I’m trying to work out how they can be a threat at the same time as not having any desire to invade.

The PRC wants to take Taiwan back, by peaceful means if at all possible, because a war in the straits if far from in China’s best interests. However, it has, and never will, give up the right to use force to reunite the island if there is a declearation of independence or if there is foreign invation/intervention of Taiwan, or if the island falls into internal chaos. Of the three conditions, only the first is of much relevence, since the later two were written with very specific scenarios in mind that was possible at the time but is not remotely likely any more (namely, the US moving into Taiwan, and open civil war on the island).

Taiwan sees the PRC as a threat because it has always done so since the pause of the civil war. Indeed, the two sides had frequent clashes over the straits for decades after. Indeed, until JianJieShi (KMT supreme leader) died, the ROC military were readying themselves to retake the mainland.

These days, it is ROC politions who use the mainland to score cheap politcal points by dumming up the ‘terrible commie threat’, or making small moves towards independence to try and provoke a PRC response to appeal to the ‘patriots’. Yet more evidence of how likely Taiwan’s leaders think it is for the PRC to actually attack.

And why should Taiwanese independence trigger a war anyway? They’ve basically been independent for 60 years so why should the PRC consider they have a right to declare war if the arrangement is formalised if the Taiwanese ever decide to do so? :confused:

Technically, the Chinese civil war never ended, much like the korean war. Broadcasters at Fox and CNN like to remind people of the later but play dumb when it comes to the former, I wonder why? :rolleyes:

Anyways, BOTH sides have ALWAYS agreed that there is only on China and that Taiwan is a part of it. The Chinese Civil war was to decide who would rule over all of China. The peace enjoyed by the two sides today is based on an agreement between the two governments on the ‘One China Principle’, if Taiwan unilatrally rips that up by declearing independence, then there goes the only offical truce there ever was between the two, and either side is free to start from where they left off 60 years ago.

PS, there is no such thing as ‘Taiwanese’ as a nationality. To suggest such a thing would be like suggesting that Geordies are not British.

Kind of like asking whenever a politician talks that one. I think you’re pretty mixed up, one minute the PRC is a threat to Taiwan, the next minute the RoC isn’t threatened by the PRC, the next minute they need Harriers, then they don’t need them as the PRC will not invade, I wish you’d make your mind up. How comes you think the PRC is a threat to Taiwan then say they have no intention of invading then? And how comes you seem to think the RoC is not preparing plans to counter a PRC attack?

Simple minds are easy to confuse apparently. :rolleyes:

When I have said the PRC is not threat to Taiwan exactly? Is it at the same rally that President Hu used Taiwan bashing to score cheap political points? :rolleyes:

Let me try and put this in simple turns.

1) Its not in the PRC’s best interest to attack Taiwan for reasons stated before. Thus the most likely cause of war between the straits is Taiwan declearing independence.
2) Taiwan sees the PRC as its biggest and only present threat (which was never disputed).
3) Taiwan does not look like it expects the PRC to attack because it turned down the ex-Marine Harrier offer from the US based on cost grounds. If it seriously feared a PLA attack at any moment, then they would be snapping up those harriers like they were hot cakes, not turning them down, which supports point 1).

Any when did I ever state that I didn’t think the ROC has plans to counter PLA attack? :rolleyes:

Oh well done! Must be hard ‘winning’ a point when no-one has ever disputed it. :rolleyes: The issue was never about who the ROC is arming against, the issue is when and how war might break out, meaning the circustances leading to it, thus the way the war might be fought.

What, you think you are the only one who has been to the PRC? Care to give some examples of when high rankers in the PRC have used the Taiwan issue to ‘get cheap boosts’?

The newest J7s and J8s are just vastly improved versons of the original. The lines are there already, and it really doesn’t take much tweaking to accomidate the new design changes. Still, these are only fringe projects in terms of budget since J7s and J8s tend to be incredibly cheap (though they might be more pricy now with composites and better radars and avionics etc). The J10 and J11 are the key projects for the PLAAF, and two main fighter types to form a hi-lo mix is hardly unusual.

The JH7 is mostly a PLAN project for anti-shipping, and it is basically the only domestic choice unless a twin seat J11 verson is developed or if a vastly beefed up J10 comes out. There have been no solid evidence of either. The only other choice is imported MK2s, and those cost a buddle. Seems the PLAN is going for a hi-lo mix as well. Again, not too out of the ordinary.

The L15 seems to be the prefered choice of the PLA for an advanced trainer, and the PLAAF is unusual amongst major powers for not currently having any advanced trainers in service, so it is filling a critical gap in capacity.

As for the Q5D, well that seems to be a private project by Nanjing who is desperate to keep the Q5 lines open as it is their main/only product. There is no indication that the PLAAF have taken the project up yet, even if they do, it will likely be in the form of an upgrade or a mix of new and re-manufactured planes instead of buying hundreds of next examples.

The Z9, and WZ10 are also filling unique roles within the PLA force structure.

There isn’t actually that much brand new stuff, and the totally new equipment (J10, J11, JH7, Z10, L15) is being inducted at a relatively normal pace for such types, if not slightly on the slow side. There have not even been rumors of any major mishaps with any of the above projects other then stories about a J10 prototype clash early on in the project life cycle. The Russians have commented favourably on the build quality of the J11s, and pictures of the J10 and L15 looks very well manufactured, the leaked info on their capacity is also pretty impressive.

Remember that many of these projects have been in the works for over a decade before they came to fruitition. What is unusual is that many of these projects seem to have reached maturity near the same time. Seems that at that time or around, China’s aviation industry was able to crack some long-standing bottlenets that probably delayed or held back some projects. Its also worth while to remember that China only realised the importance of air power after GWI, and most likely spending on aviation projects greatly increased after then, thus many projects probably started around the same time.

The EF partner nations have put way too much money into the project to back out now, especially at such a late stage, when they have invested the vast majority of the money they were going to invest and is just about to start reaping the rewards.

Even if the F3 replacement tender started right now, without having any money already spent, the chances of the UK going Russian is pretty remote. Politics still plays a major part in any major armes deals. Just look at all the hoohah about the amongt of gas the EU imports from Russia for a recent example of Russian-phobia. An arms purchase of the scale you are talking about would generate 10 times as much outrage.

Capacity have suprisingly little to do with who actually wins a contract, recent big ticket fighter deals are littered with examples. Fact of the matter is, who you buy arms from is like a barometre of which ‘side’ you are on in the great game, and Britain doesn’t own a solitary piece of Russian made arms of any kind. Besides, the Americans will take serious offence at such a ‘betral’ and would manufacture all sorts of problems for the MoD when it comes to intergrating anything American onto Russian made ac.

Then there’s also the issue of whether the Russians will want to sell since selling to the UK will equate to selling to the Americans. Don’t really see Putin all that keen to have the Americans know all there is to know about Russian planes more advanced then the ones they have in service.

Not going to happen any time soon.