plawolfTo see how this little plane fly with 2 pilots weight.
Surely there is no need to test that during the first flight? Besides, they would need data on how the plane flies with just one pilot anyways for comparison, if such comparison is needed, so they might as well have a single pilot take it out the first time ever. Risk minimisation should be standard operating procedures.
plawolfBut weren’t it us forumlingers that states the 100+ J-10 in service, not chinese government? I remember someone saying that the J-10 hasen’t been officaly even published…So you are parking at the wrong tree…you see if PRC would have decleared that there is a 100+ J-10 in service, then i wouldn’t even been posting on this thread. The issue here is that in my obinion, some of us are iterperating facts bit too blue-eyesly…
…but then again i cannot throw any more counterclaims to support my obinion so i will settle to this….
But then what’s with all the talk about china pulling soviet style painting games to make it look like there are more planes then there really are?
If you have an issue with the method people have used to deduce the ‘100+’ J10 figure, go right ahead and pick holes in their reasoning. But pulling arguments out of thin air with no rational to back them up and then trying to pretend you didnt mean what you said afterwards is just bad form.
plawolfWhy did they need two pilots in the aircraft for this ‘first flight’?
plawolfA BVR capable radar alone could cost well over $1m, same for a new engine. Its about returns to investment and projected sales volume, and neither look that good for a ‘super J7’. And as I said before, why would CAC want to make a couple hundred thousand for an upgrade when they can make millions selling a new plane?
The FC1 is about as cheap a BVR fighter as you will get, there is just no need to undercut it in terms if price. Especially if you are the one making the FC1 in the first place.
plawolfBut could this all been done in deceit in mind? Soviets did play alot with digit numbers back in the cold war…could China just paint new digits over former ones just to mislead western observers? Or distribue few planes to each of these regiments and paint misleading digits that would make others believe that there are far more planes service than there actually is?
Perhaps i’m being just sceptic but this still doesen’t covince me. But i’m quesing we need to wait untill more solid information comes around, like clear pictures showing more than dozen J-10 in a row in some operational base attached to operational regiments….
And what reason would china have for going that? If you have been paying attention to chinese PR attempts for the last couple of decades, you would see that the overwhelming and continuing trend is one of understating their capacities (and budget according to the americans).
The rational for this is obvious – china cant hope to beat the US in an arms race, so china is building its forces up quitely in the hope that the US will not notice or underestimate the PLA’s capacities. Meaning that if china and the US did come to blows over taiwan, the PLA would be able to rely of the element of suprise to try and counter US technological and numerical superiority.
Over stating the PLA’s capacity will be playing right into the american neo-cons’ hands as it would give them more ammo to fight for increased US militaty spending and to further their ‘china threat’ agenda. What possible benefit does over stating give china?
As for wanting pictures of full regements of J10s lined up with their numbers on show and huge plaboards with the base name behind them, well good luck to you! If past trend are anything to go by, you’ll be lucky to chance across one of those sometime in the next decade. Hell, what am I talking about, the PLAAF never releases pics like that. :rolleyes:
If such a picture were to show up, then chances are its a fake or a real attempt at misinformation. :diablo:
plawolfIt could certainly be done, just look at the JL9. Just slap the JL9’s forward section on a J7 and you would have room for a decent sized radar. J7G/E style double delta wings will also improve agility, and other mods (F16I style conformal tanks, better turbofan engines etc) could be applied to give it extra range.
But it would be more trouble then its worth to be honest. All those upgrades will cost money and take time to develop, and if you were to apply all of them, the price of the original J7 and upgrade will probably come close to that of new built and far more capable FC1/JF17s. The time needed to develop this new ac will also likely mean that by the time the upgrade is ready, most J7s would be nearing the end of their service lives and the FC1 would likely be ready to buy off the shell, so there is even less reason to go for the upgrade.
On top of all that, its not in CAC’s interest to develop such an upgrade as their FC1 is designed specifically to replace J7s. If they also come up with an upgrade to keep the J7s competative for longer, then chances are that will cost them FC1 sales, and selling new ac is always more profitable then upgrading old ones.
Anyone who can afford the FC1 will get it and reliaget their J7s to the reserves or training units. Those that cant afford FC1s are not likely to be able to afford a comprehensive J7 upgrade.
plawolfOUTDATED??? ARe you a freaking nitwit? tsqr happened in 1989 – that was only 15-20 years ago and now you are telling me that in this short period the commie leopard has changed its spots? Dude the chinese economic policy might have changed (and that too took a lot longer) over the last 3 decades or so, but assuredly it takes a lot more to change a political system unless it is a bloody revolution and another dictator/oligarchy comes up who kicks out/kill anyone who opposes him/them, in the case of china that would be deja vu.
That outburst just shows the level of thinking you are limited to. See something you dont like the look of, go abusive and hopefully things will degenerate into a verbal mud fight and you can avoid dealing with the ‘unpleasent’ realities. :rolleyes:
Have you even been to china, ever?
Dont go BSing as if you know a country to someone who has spend half his life there when you are just armchair commentating based on biased reporting by the likes of Fox.
And if you have studying even the most basic political points, you would realise that china is going through the classic modernisation model of development, much like the west.
Those rants are first of all not very old and secondly are very, very relevant, just ask H.H. the Dalai Lama. jUst cause rabid nationalists can’t explain them away does not make them irrelevant or outdated.
And what do you know of the Dalai Lama and tibet?
Admittedly it has little to do with J10 or lca, but if you are able to look carefully at this thread you will see that it never was much about the lca or j10, it was quite clearly about:
“how come we chinese manage to have sooo much wealth more than these indians (which includes a tonload of more weapons etc) despite coming from behind? Man, these indians must suck or we must certainly be the most industruios people in the whole world” In short, tinman’s whole idea was to pat his own back, naturally guys like you will jump that bandwagon and pat it for him as well.
If your understanding of the world is anything like you’d interpretation of this thread, then no wonder you have such funny ideas about what is happening in the world. :rolleyes:
The thread started off with commentators suggesting Indian over-ambition and indecisiveness/beaucracy was the cause of their slow progress, then an indian sympificer tried to suggest that china’s lead was because of more funding, which started that line of debate.
Later, some merely poked at the huge gaping hole in the argument of some, who shot off on a tangent about india’s ‘superior’ governance/human rights/whatever, by asking them the obvious question of, if indian government is sooooo much better and care sooooo much more about the indian people, why is the indian people so much poorer then the people of china?
And ya don’t mention modern sociologists/theorists/philosophers to me….or are you just trying to show us here that they actually allow some such literature in chinese colleges of late? 🙂 I still don’t buy it… i bet you read these works osn some campus in a democratic country. And no wonder guys like you and goldie haven’t understood democracy clearly. Here is a reciprocated suggestion: Read Washington, Jefferson lincoln, Rousseau or Gandhi and then perhaps you may understand.
uss.
And who ever said that I read them in china? And what does it matter? Your simplistic point of view and lack of critical thinking of any kind makes one seriously doubt if you have read any of the mainstream works on morden politics and so would not give you any righ to lecture others about it.
Ad FYI, only Americans read the likes of Washington or Jefferson these days. Elsewhere in the world, things have moved on.
plawolfTry a little harder to understand what democracy means and then perhaps you could differentiate between a political ideology (democracy) and an economic model (capitalism). While china started following the capitalist model (opening up) a lot earlier than india, the latter held on to the “Mixed economy” model until the mid nineties. hence the difference in economies/riches. OTOH, while china still has a single party that makes all critical decisions for the individual (including how many kids to have), it is only natural that its citizens might find it a wee bit difficult to understand the democratic model that India has followed.
In other words, democracy does not guarantee wealth, it does however, safeguard some semblance of human rights for its citizens.
Goldendragon,
Let me ask you a question: while it is obvious that the chinese govt. has a clear edge in terms of riches made, where is their edge when it comes to humane values???? One wonders if all this new found wealth will prevent future episodes similar to Tsqre massacre, cultural revolution, or give some semblance of freedom to poor tibetans etc etc. Or has the ancient, spiritual middle kingdom now embraced capitalism so completely that perhaps wealth is the only new value left for a decrepit system of govt.?Regards,
USS.
And exactly what has this got to do with the J10 and LCA? :rolleyes:
Some people seem only able to bring out the same old rants no matter what the topic is. :rolleyes:
If you have any idea of what things are really like in china right now, you would realise how irrelevent most of your argument is. china is changing, people who actually give a damn about the well being of china and the chinese people know this. Only people who cares little about china would bring out such outdated and inaccurate sterotypes to criticise china because of some misplaced sense of rivalry or worse.
Oh, and before you start shooting your month off about ‘understanding’ democracy, why dont you have a read of Lipset, Blondel or Kavanagh?
plawolfWhy is it that some people just cant help but make silly and irrelevent comments? Is it so hard to compare the bare facts that you have to resort to inventing criticisms based on outdated sterotypes to make yourself feel better? :rolleyes:
You know where this will lead if you want to continue making crap up, and I personally have better things to do with my time, so why dont you do everyone a favour and keep your personal prejeduses out of it?
plawolfPerhaps.
But the amount of resources that goes into creating an aviation industry is important. Free societies create wealth at a tremendous pace. We know that Western-style free-market nations tend to be extremely rich. It doesn’t matter if they are in East Asia or Western Europe. We also know that communism tend to make countries extremely poor compared to its neighbors whether in North Korea or Eastern Europe.
China has expanded economically (and militarily as a side effect) because of the freedoms put into place since Deng Xiaopeng in the 1980s but it still trails other East Asian states like Korea and Japan as well as other Chinese societies. There is no doubt about this.
China itself sees that change must take place which is why there is a convergence among Chinese, especially urbanites, towards Hong Kong and Taiwan standards. They are beginning to watch the same TV shows, listen to the same music and use the same business practices in Hong Kong, Shanghai or Taipei.
India is economically almost three times smaller than China inspite of being a democratic and free country. China could aspire to be like Hong Kong and Taiwan as a model and widen it great lead even further. There is NOTHING that India could change to advance beyond the system it has now since democracy is the optimal system (as evidenced by the immense wealth of Europe and the US.)
India was accorded a great advantage for 50 years by being a “free” nation while China was held back by communism and its disasters like the Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward. But that advantage left India only one third as wealthy as China. Maybe that is the best India could do with the optimal system.
On the other hand, once China reaches the level of other Chinese societies, the gulf between the two will widen into an insurmountable chasm (if it is not so already) and so will the military budget, as Flogger pointed out.
Your argument is well thought out, but there are a few issues you haven’t considered.
It is not ‘free societies’ per sa that determines the economic performance of an economy, but the economic system. That is why you have nations such as singapore and china, that are not considered very ‘free’ but are performing fantastically economically. In fact, the likes of SK, Taiwan and HK all enjoyed amazing growth rates even when they didnt have a democratically elected government and the likes.
There are many schools of thought in relation to growth theories, and if you can come up with a thoery that explains exactly how and why economies grow the way they do, then you would have yourself a nobile prize in economics. But as things stand, there is no requirement on a specific kind of government system to ensure long-term economic prosparity. Only free markets, flexable labour etc.
If you look more closely at india and China, you would see that China’s strong government has provided China with many important advanatages over india that has no doubt contributed to China’s superior economic performance. The vast sums spend on infrastructure; the political power to cut through red tape and beaucrasy to create a very hospitable business environment for foreign investors; providing universal free basic education; eradicating historic vices and liberating women; a sable government etc,the list is huge.
That is not to say that china would not benefit from a ‘freer’ society, indeed it would go a long way in helping to solve some of the current pressing problems, such as growing social tensions, corruption, waste etc. But that would come at a cost, as a freer society would doubtlessly reduce government power and may see China loose some of the advanatages listed above.
But, I digress enough.
plawolfBut China has been building aircraft for a very long time (even if they were Russian designs) while India has never built anythign major until the LCA (not counting the Herkut or whatever it’s called because it was designed mostly by some western guy).
And who’s fault is that? The further back you look, the more you realise how much of an lead India squandered. Who was the one that inharented an economy blown to hell and back by effectively a century of continuous war and strife? Which country wasted over a decade destroying its own scientific tallent? Need I continue listing?
plawolfWhat is this supposed ‘Israeli source canard delta technology demonstrator’ thingy that is suposed to have crashed on China? Got anything coming close to evidence to back that up? :rolleyes:
Don’t get me wrong, Im not having a dig at you, just the pratice of taking baseless rumours and presenting them as facts.
Anyways, back on topic:
India, imo, is far too ambicious and optermistic in regard to what they want and think they can do, and tend to give in far too easily. Success does not come easy, you have to keep working at the problem to have any hope of finding a solution or a way around. Merely giving up and moving onto something else as soon as something goes wrong will not solve the problem for you. The unrealistically high targets also compound the issue since such lofty goals means that the projects are almost destined to run into serious problems even before any work has began.
India has no excuse to fail as they have. They have had major advanatages over China, such as far greater access to technology and advisers that have shown for naught.
plawolfThe PLAAF has thus far got the lion share of new ac with the likes of the J11s, MMKs and J10s going to them. The PLANAF on the other hand has had to be contempt with mainly JH7s and a few MK2s.
Thus far, its appears that the PLAAF is concerntrating on AA and ground attack while the PLANAF is prioritising on anti-shipping with only some newer model J8s supplementing its figther force, but even so, the PLANAF seemed to have been left far behind. It is there, purhaps that the best possibility for the FC1 lies.
It is quite possible that the PLANAF might choose the FC1 on cost (all those new warships and subs must surely have bitten huge holes in their budget so they have to be economical) and/or J10 and J11 production rates.
But with all the emphysis now apparent on inter-forces co-operation and joint excerises, it would be interesting to see if the PLANAF goes for its own balanced air force or is able to rely on the PLAAF to plug its air combat deficiencies.
plawolfJust found (here for example at CDF posted by Tam) …. maybe J-11B prototype + WZ-10 😮 🙁
Ohhh … these are so interesting and exciting times …. :diablo:
Deino
At first I thought the pic most be a PS because there is little reason for a Z10 to be flying anywhere near a new built J11, not that close anyhow. but having looked at the picture more closely, I must say that it looks to be authentic as not only could I not find any signs of tamperment, the heat hazing and the dust disturbence on the ground under the Z10 would be consistant with a helo hovering/flying that low. So this pic would seem to be real. Even if it was a composit of two different pictures, the Z10 and J11 both look real enough, and thats what really matters.
plawolfI fail to see how a soverign nation choosing to buy defensive weapons such as short ranged SAMs could be seen as ‘a very provocative act’ by the world’s only military and economic superpower. :rolleyes:
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