2nd pic: This is interesting! Is this a half done YJ-82/83 mock-up or if we are to get a bit adventurerous, could it be the supersonic terminal part of the YJ-83…….(just wondering……)

unlikely as it is too big (more like 2/3 of the whole missile). when you consider that about 1/9 of the whole missile is rocket booster, with about another 1/9~1/5 being the turbofan engine and intake, it doesnt leave you with very much room for fuel to make a turbofan layout worth while.

as for the translation, well i am somewhat busy right now, so i probably wont get a chance to do that for a few days.

CNSS…PS??……Is this a Block 2 plane???

CNSS is definately PSed on, my guess is that someone got fed up with others cutting his logo off so he dicided to stick it where it cant be cut off.

this is an increasing tendency, and it is dissapointing as these practics runes many great pictures.

the J8II is a M2+ beast and china has been operating that for decades.

unless you want them to land at M3, i dont see anyone that has experience flying an M2 plane having difficulty with the foxhound.

if anything, fast planes are easier to handle as they tend to not be all that agile – hence no way of doing complex manovers, so need to learn those manovers. the Su27 is, IMO a far greater transition for someone with only J7/Mig21 experience as the new level of agility the flanker offers means that a pilot will need to lead many complex and often dangerous manovers that goes against much of what he has previously been taught.

but thats beside the point.

shenyang is where the PLAAF J11/Su27s are being built, it also has J8 lines. not only would it be extremely unlikely for the CMC to put all its eggs in one basket by giving two high profile licenced jets to the same company, but shenyang would be unlikely yo be able to effective handle the task of making three fighter types at the same time.

the only way to get around that would be a massive exansion of SAC – not a paticulaly wise thing to do when the chinese military aviation industry as a whole has huge over-capacity.

and anyways, what would the PLA want with the Mig31 anyways? as i said before, they already have a cold war era high speed interceptor that is already well established. what good would another one do now? especially since the wide-spread use of stealth technologies in future combat ac will quickly render the Mig31’s biggest advanatge all but useless.

i think one is the attack verson while the other is a trainer, both would be twin-seaters.

PS: Wolfy, if you have time……you have another job! F22P arty… 😀

right, sorry i got a little sidetracked before.

here is the guist of the article, it might be a little inaccurate as its written in traditional chinese and its a little blurry:

kawan is reporting that china and pakistan has officially signed a contract for 4 F22P FFGs on the 4th of april. according to the MOA signed by the two countries in 2001, the work should have started on the ships in 2002, with korachi (sp) shipyard completing the contrustion of 2 of the 4 in the next 7 years, with the first two contructed in china. the PN has plans to import another 4 ships to take the overal order up to 8.

the price for the ships provided by the chinese side is US$120m each. this cost does not include weapons, radar, helo or (other) sensors.

currently the project has been majorly prosponed, with the critical problem being the PN’s lack of funds, as such there is consideration (from the PN) of asking the chinese side for loans to resolve this problem (so this is an old artical). according to a model contructed by korachi, there are major changes to the design.

firstly, the addition of a rear gun, to accomodate the fitting of a chinese made MMW radar (somewhat confusing, but its what the article says). secondly, the bridge has been redesigned to eliminate right angles and to improve stealth features.

the original design proposed by the chinese had the sea based verson of LY60 AAM, but currently the PN has decided to use the HHQ7. the hanger has also been changed to allow the instalation of aditional chinese made ESM/ECM.

compared to the chinese 053H3 (jiang wei II), the F22P differs in that it will have two licence built russian 630M CIWS, the sonar is although thought to be of ukrianian origan.

the redesigned F22P’s length would be increased from 114.5m to 118m, the width would also be increased from 12.4m to 13.2m.

the F22P will be using the Z9C ASW helo. the 8 AShM for the F22P would not be the YJ83, which has now been widely adopted by the PLAN, and has supersonic termnal attack capacity (interesting point here about the YJ83, would be even more interesting to find out where this info came from). as such, the F22ps would be using the YJ82/C802. (PN) is also considering fitting the F22P with the new gen NR64 ESM/ECM system, which is composed of an antana on each side (might be worth looking for on the finished ships), and is built by the yang zhou shipboard eletronics research institute (a literal translation, might be known by a different name in english).

before getting the F22P FFgs, the PN is concertrating its resources on FACs. of these, the QUWWAT has already been delivered to the navy on the 13/09/04, the JURRAT of the same class is curretly under construction and the thrid ship of the class is also about to be launched (might be a means to determine the publishing date of the article).

the thai company Marsun of Thailand helped in the constrution of this class of FAC, especially in the construction. this class of FAC uses the chinese C802 AShM, generally, most of the weapons, radar and electronics are of chinese origan.

the QUWWAT started construction 7 years ago, and is built mainly by pakistan, and is a milestone in its indiginous shipbuilding industry. the project was mainly to help to lay the foundation for pakistan to build the F22P FFG, as such, its weapons systems are compatable with that planned for the F22P (might e a reason for choosing the C802 over the C803, if they were given the choice that is).

kawan feels that unless given comprehansive assistance by china, according to pakistan’s current shipbuilding capacity, assembling the F22P would still pose many problems.

ha, if you havent notice, no-one was talking about politics till you showed up and started coming up with irrelevent and plainly wrong ‘opinions’.

i tried to keep things brief to start with, but you were too stubrun to just take it like a man and admit when you were wrong (or is it just face saving, as your attitude in private seemed more fair). and also, instead of focusing on the points i made and try to bebuff them, you kept bring in more and ever increasingly irrelevent things to try and deflect the issue. what has Mao, or china’s police or the olympics have to do with anything that has been said before? :rolleyes:

like i said before, stop trying to score points cos no-one gives a crap, and start another thread if you want to carry on where we left off.

However your point that the only group in the government that wants to show off the military is the CMC is misleading. For one thing, the PRC’s President (Hu) is its current head.

so what? the US president is the ‘commander in chief’ of all american military forces. does that make him a military man? :rolleyes:

instead of clutch at straws over titles, you should be looking at the background of the men.

But also the fundamental ideological principle of the CCP has changed to nationalism now – not Communism. So instilling pride through displays of military hardware is something that some members of the civilian arm would hardly be averse to.

i see you cant even tell the difference between cause and effect. :rolleyes:

unlike some other asian nations that tend to go around buying hugely expansive ‘poster boy’ kit that their military doesnt really need and are of dubious military value, name me one single piece of ‘prestgue’ weapon that china has EVER bought?

everything the PLA buys or develops, it needs, if not to plug a capacity hole, then to gain new technology and experience.

many in the civilian adminstration would not be ‘averse’ to the military parading their newer toys in front of tiananmen on national day (which incidently seem to be a passing trend as there is talk of the celebrations being tuned down and maybe even having the military parade canceled this year), but none of them would be all too impressed with any proposal to buy hugely expansive equipment purely for the purpose of showing off.

It isn’t just making people feel proud about China – it’s about making them feel good about the CCP. As you said yourself, anyone with half a brain would know that 😀

ha, only a pure ameture would make such a comment. :rolleyes:

the idea is not to make the people love the CCP instead of china, it is to install the idea that the CCP=china. :rolleyes:

I do know that the military in China was traditionally….regarded with suspicion. After all it was used to maintain an autocratic monarchy. If you want to give me a lecture about the excesses of the Chinese military feel free – but you’re preaching to the choir. I mean, even the British/English army was greatly feared/hated until recent centuries.

that statement again shows your total lack of in depth understanding. :rolleyes:

so, which monarchy are you talking about? as i recall it, china had rather alot of different monarchs, and the vast majority were overthrown by the people when they became too decadent/incompotant.

the military has a bad stigma, just not for the reasons you think/hope.

It’s funny you talk about trying to attract clever people, because I’ve had exactly the same conversation with some of my Chinese friends. They told me about their “military service” and I jokingly asked them if they’d continue it – they all said they wouldn’t go into the military under any circumstances (unless there was a war on).

and the point in that paragrath being?

My ideas were just suggestions. I don’t know concretely how this whole carrier thing started. I thought it was acceptable to express a single opinion without someone going ape about it. You spent a lot of time criticising my suggestions – I didn’t hear any from you.

i see your tendency to over-react and play the victim at every opportunity goes unchanged. :rolleyes: when have i said you cant make a comment? i am merely pointing out the gaping holes in your ‘opinions’.

if you were interested in obtaining the truth as opposed to merely finding an excuse to vent whatever steam you go bottle up, then you would have tried to debate the various points i have made instead of acting like some 3 year old that got his/her first taste of the real world where people actually expect you to back up your claims. :rolleyes:

as for my opinions. well i have made my views very clear many posts ago, and unlike some here, i have actually back them up.

One last point – I disagree with you if you think that any middle class person just has to look out of their front door to feel proud. My friends are generally optimistic but they have a lot of grievances as well. They know about the problems facing China, such as the lack of social security, the wealth gap (not as big as in the US/UK but large from their perspective), the corruption, the huge environmental problems, etc – and they are worried about it.

ha, do you honestly beleive that or are you just arguing for the sake of it? :rolleyes:

name one nation on earth that is perfect. hell, name one town, one community, one street that is without flaw.

there will always be imprefections, inequalities and flaws in human society, and we well always strive to eliminate/reduce them. that is one of the fundermental driving forces behind human progress.

if you think that as long as problems remain, no-one would feel good about what they have achieved, then you are really beyoud help.

sure, there are still many problems in china, and everyone will worry and get stressed out over one thing or another at one time or another. but that doesnt detract from the sense of achievement and pride people will feel when they sit down and think about what they have achieved so far.

you dont need to parade great big guns in front of people to get them to feel proud when their standard of living has improved so much. hell as people get more eduacted, parading great big guns actually has the reverse affect as people tend to start thinking about the cost of it all instead of being mesmerised by its power (part of the reason for the proposed watering down of the national day celebrations).

——-

By the way, I feel we’ve been very naughty to turn a discussion of the PLAN into one of Chinese politics/nationalism. Shall we just end it here and start talking about the PLAN again? 😉

you were the one who started it, so as long as you stop posting irrelevent and unsubstantiated claims, im more then happy to do something else with my free time.