plawolfwell i never said iran couldnt RE the missiles or make something based on them. im just doubtful as to whether iran can actually do it in time to pre-empty any US military advantures (which is the whole point in having the missiles in the first place – to form a deterrant).
remember that if washington is to attck iran, it would do so well before it thinks iran might actually have nuclear weapons (for obvious reasons), so this time frame stretches from tommorrow to around 3 years max at.
secondly, i never said that RE and feilding of the KH55s would be mutually exclusive. iran will almost certainly, IMHO, be working to feild the missiles at the same time as they are studying it.
this would make the most sense as it would give iran a strategic precision strike capacity almost immediately, which will be a far better deterrant then ballistic missiles with conventional warheads (or even chemical and biological warheads as a cruise missile makes the agent delivery process much easier and far more efficent).
after all, what’s the point in keeping ready made missiles sitting in warehouses doing nothing when you really need them?
plawolfdefinitive proof that the 22XX stealthy FACs are in mass production.
plawolfits interesting that most poeple think things would have turned out better had there not been hitler. but do remember that it can swing the other way as well.
at that time, the old system had failed and the german people were seeking for a NEW leader, a new idea. and they were probably willing to try anything to get some of their past ‘glories’ back.
so the question really would have been which ideaoligy would have provailed and not which person.
at the time, there were mainly two new parties presenting two new ideals to the german people – the NAZIs and the communists.
there were quite a few charasmatic leaders within the NAZI party besides hitler, and had the NAZI party won, things would probably have turned out much the same as they did, and perhaps far worse for the worlds.
remeber that while germany quantum leaped the rest of the world in terms of tactics and military tech at the begining of WWII, it had not all been the doings of hitler. the blitzcreg tactic would have been developed with or without hitler, the german people were almost bound to rise up against the injustice of versi etc.
if you look at the course of the war, hitler actually screwed up big time frequently, but we only really remember the times when he didnt get away with it (stalingrad etc
).
the war with france and britan had actually been as a result of a miscalculation over poland. germany was well equiped, but had not yet come close to fullfilling its full potential.
british and french (and russian and american) military thinking was stuck at the great war, and would not have changed much in a couple of years. but had hitler been a little more patient and built up his forces for a few more years (his U-boat fleet and airforce in paticular), britain would almost certainly have fallen as well. and without britain, the US would have no way to invade europe, and the war might have ended in stalemate or more nuclear weapons bing used.
had germany went into russia without having to divide its forces and with a much more powerful force to start with, it might have been able to break stalingrad and win the war. (hell, had germany not attack russia to start with, or not been fixated with stalingrad, or when they were on the retreat, had not been ordered to hold onto every last bit of land regardless of the circumstances…germany might still have came out on top.)
the alternative would have been a communist germany backed by russia. the anexation of all the countries in between the two would probably still have taken place, but britain and france would have been far less likely to opposed it until it was too late – when the combined german-russian forces were ready to strike at their leasure (just imagine german kind of quality weapons with russian kind of numbers).
so hitler might have actually been a blessing in disgise. 😮
might make for a good sci-fi/time travel book dont you think? 😉
plawolfI heard on the World Armed Forces Forum that China was cutting J-10 production to 200 orders. What do y’all think?
had a skim through and there doesnt appear to be any reliable sources to support the idea. just a bunch of rumors and speculation.
its kinda like the rumors of thousands of J10s being planned, its just random numbers until someone can get some decent material to back it up.
plawolfChina develops LD 2000 CIWS
It has recently been revealed that China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) has developed the LD 2000 Close-In Weapon System (CIWS) and has already carried out some firing trials. The system would typically provide close-in protection of high-value strategic targets such as airfields, command posts and logistic centres and it is …
04-Mar-2005From Janes
Anybody got more infor or pictures? Next generation CIWS for PLAN?
my guess is that this is talking about that truck mounted Type730 CIWS pic we seen flouting around a while ago. as such, it would be the other way round – the PLAN’s next gen CIWS adapted for the PLA.
although its hard to see the use of these things in the defence of a massive target like an airfeild (without having to deploy an unreasonable number of course), but they could prove pretty useful in defending things like C&C centres, powerstations, bridges, dames etc types of small to medium sized targets from current gen bombs and missiles.
plawolfchinese fuel-air bomb test pics.
plawolfinteresting collection of chinese UAVs.
about the last role, are they also UAVs or are they supposed to be weapons for the big one (chang kong-1?).
also, what are the four tubes near the wings? engines? weapons?
plawolfCan someone summarize whats in the KJ-2000 article posted by Showtime
its actually two articles.
the first one doesnt seem to hold much reliable info. it basically just gives a brief history lesson about the phalcon, and claimed that israel had to cancel the contract but still passed on part of the radar tech (which i doubt). then goes on to talk about how the ‘Kong Jing-2000’ AWACS project was given top priority and was the air force’s ‘number one project’.
then it goes on and says that the KJ2000 uses solid state active phase array tech; and pretty much everything except the airframe is indiginous.
it also says that the reason it was frequently seen over nanjing is because No14 institute (responsible for the phase array radars on the 052Cs) also manufactured the KJ2000’s phase array radar, so the planes went to nanjing to have the radars fitted.
it then gives a basic outline of the roles th KJ2000 is suposed to be able to undertake – just the usual threat detection, fighter control, datalinking current battlefield info etc, nothing special.
then it basically just the potential difficulties and says that the No14 institute has ‘obviously’ overcome them bla bla bla.
the only other noteworthy point was that it is saying that the KJ2000 uses an ‘S’ band 4000mm2 frequency.
the second article however, is a little more ‘juicy’, IMHO.
it is basically recaping an earlier article by the ‘offical’ shanghai based ‘guo ji zhan wang’ paper, which touched on the ‘shen zhen’ DDG excerising with AWACS ac recently.
the article says that before the KJ2000 awacs become operational, the PLA has dployed an interim ‘low level’ awacs based on the Y8 airframe.
although it does not implicitly name the Y8 ‘balancing beam’ as the plane involved in the excerise, the fact that it brought it up seems to suggest that they imply it to be.
it kinda fits with the original article as in it, it was said that th awacs ‘frequently’ fed the ‘shen zhen’ battlefield updates.
if the KJ2000 was the plane involved, it should have been able to provide continuous live updates. the only reason why the updates would be ‘patchy’ that i can think of is the need for the Y8 to constaintly change course to achieve all-round survalence, and if it transmitted the info in bursts once it had completed a 360 degree scan.
plawolfwe are just going around in circles. i’ll let you have the last word on the matter and lets just agree to disagree on this one and let time be our judge. 😉
plawolfNow this is outrageous.
My last post was nearly totally pointing out near unarguable facts.
I don’t need your ways out, plawolf, neither your mercy. If you want, bring the moderators in. I didn’t violate any of the laws on which this forum stands. For once, you and GD could have put your nationalistic feelings in the side and listen as civilized people to another member’s opinion.
You chose not to. That’s a shame, but don’t expect me to cry over it. Your lack of will to listen to different opinions instead of taking them as idiotic is your own loss.
You had a good thread until this argument started and I watched it every day. But go on with your discussions, obviously you are the ones not mature enough to listen to other’s opinions.Good luck.
oh, so this is how it is huh? :rolleyes:
we were having a pretty good discussion until you showed up and for no apprent reason brought in the LAVI, which has NOTHING to do with this thread – going off topic.
i replied to your claims by systematically taking your arguments apart in the hope that you would see the flaws in your argument and end this pointless debate, and you call me ‘uncivilised’? :rolleyes:
having seen that there is no quick end to this as i had originally hoped, i have offered you a chance to either take this argument elsewhere or to quite without looking like you were conceding defeat, so that the other members are not driven away and we loose their participation in this thread. and im not ‘mature’? :rolleyes:
no wonder your arguments surrounding the LAVI-J10 link are so confused. :rolleyes:
the moderators have been informed, and just to be extra nice, im going to start you a LAVI fantasy thread for you to monolog without boring others.
satisfied? :rolleyes:
plawolfSupposedly a gun designed specifically for helos.
ah! thanks alot for the pic GD.
i have been looking for that pic for quite a while now. it first appeared on china.com a couple months back, but i didnt save it at the time and couldnt find it again until now.
here’s another pic of a suposid chinese helo gun/cannon (14.5mm).
plawolfErez:
your last reply is so full of wholes and inaccurate assumptions it is almost too easy to take it apart. but im not going to because this is a good thread and i want to keep it alive and on topic.
if you want to say more about the LAVI, go start another thread where you move this argument.
i have already given you a way out, if you dont take it, i will be forced to bring in the moderators.
plawolfTo keep things simple: From the ~200 nations no more than a dozen have the intentions to built a full indigenous aviation industry and collect data for that. The USA are in in lead by a great margin, itself is just intrested in some of the achivements of the others at best. Russia is still in a fair situation after the economical break, when it comes to “know how”. The EU is the closest thing to the USA. In Asia – Japan, China and India are the “big three”, but still lagging behind in key-areas. It is no secret, that China looks for a top-ten position and to take the lead in Asia. China has had an internal related break in its development from the 60s to 70s.
I do not know, how many of you are regular visitiors of the great aviation fairs from the 60s up to now? Despite the achivements from the last two decades, China has still a very long way to go to achive its national goal of a true independent aviation industry similar to the former SU, many of you may have still in mind. The main problem of China is to close the time-gap to catch-up. – So China uses all ways and possibilities to cut corners.
After the end of the Cold War the weapons-race had slowed down considerably and military hardware is no longer easy sell. Good times for closing gaps.
Many of you have no problem to claim from the Europeans to end the weapons-embargo against China. Simply to counter-balance the present dependence on Russian help. Nothing more and nothing less.
The last big order went to Boeing, it shows, that the Chinese intrest in US-technology is still alive. Despite Weapons-boycott still forced by USA. 😉You can blame me with ease, when you use this forum, to deliver us with some of the datas, you claim from me. 😀
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: are simply no substitute for that. 😎
bla bla bla…
just a bunch of very generalise ASSUMPTIONS, which provides ZERO evidence for your eariler claim that, “the chinese AWACS prototypes are less capable then US AWACS’ from the 70s’.
to say anything else is just a waste of my time. :rolleyes:
plawolfEvery country has some sort of military intelligence service. Chinese in Paris/Farnborough a.s.o. were not out for holiday there. There was and is always a collecting of informations about military technology. The findings of that were not stored in a cellar. 😀
Every item of info you get your hand on was evaluated and looked into. How to get the most from that later. Till the 70s the Chinese aviation industry was based on the guidelines from the the SU. Even in time of tensions Chinese students were found in Moscow and other WP countries. During Asian-War fighters crashed on Chinese soil or countries supported by China were not ignored. In the late 70s Egypt sold their most modern MiGs to China in return for spare parts, itself cut from by SU. Good Chinese avionics were not present at that time and state of the art aero-engines missing. In the 80s China realised its full lack of aviation-capabilities and started a catch-up run based on eastern and western technology. Stopped by 1989. The End of the Cold War and Russia’s need for money still allowed China to catch up in numerous aviation fields. There is no longer a real difference between civil/military items/production. = dual use 😉
SO? :rolleyes:
is china the only nation with an intelegence service? everyone tries to get as much technologies as possible, that hardly means anything worth meantioning.
anyhow, the stuff china managed to obtain from thrid parties where mere bonuses. you can depend on the US and SU to keep losing equipment and that equipment to end up in your hands. as such, the vast majority of the tech had to be developed indiginously.
the rest is just a deperate attempt to try and ‘prove’ that china is only capable of copying stuff with zero innocative capacity of its own. which is clearly BS.
China explored several avenues at the same time. No real shortage of money and man-power any longer. The developments of the 80s/90s showed China the urgency to have a state of the art airpower and aviation-industry as basement. But experiences in development and production can not be bought, but have to be made personally. A time-consuming process, where no much money or numerous manpower can help out. Simply to many fields to catch-up at the same time. :diablo:
more BS. :rolleyes:
tech and experience can, and is being transfered between the world’s nations all the time.
the reason its taking china so much time is because the west has always tried to keep a strangle hold on the level of tech they release (why the hell do you think they have government departments dedicated to evaluating due use tech licences? ). as such, china needs to do much more the research and development the same way as the west. and seeing how china was about half a century late off the line, i’d say they have been making pretty good progress.
[/QUOTE] China uses an old Russian airframe to base its future AWACs on. An USAF AWACs from the 70s is still more capable than the Chinese prototype of today. The Russian A-50 came never close and on that help the Chinese had to stay at the moment. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE]
and just what exactly are you basing this on? :rolleyes:
do you have reliable info as to what capabilities the KJ-2000 has? :rolleyes:
yet more BS. :rolleyes:
plawolfNo US participation in J-8II, Super Seven now FC-1 and many other projects before 1989?!
that just betrays your ignarence. :rolleyes:
the J8II peace pearl was mostly an avionics upgrade with some structural changes made to the already COMPETE J8II airframe. it was an upgrade, not a joint development programme. :rolleyes:
as for the FC1, the Super7 conceptual models look very little like what the plane is today.
the Super7 was basically dead after the loss of US technological support. the FC1 is in all intent and purposes a new plane that took advantage of the technological breakthroughs achieved in the J10 project.
Israeli Phalcon deal with China and IL-76 in Tel-Aviv for integration.
and what happened to that then? :rolleyes:
Chinese like to forget the input of former SU-technology before and after 1989.
again, total lack of knowledge on the issue.:rolleyes:
before the breakup of the USSR deal, china and the USSR had been on the wrongs sides of the cold war for decades. the most recent USSR tech input at the time was with the Mig21/J7 (the visit of gorbichov to china is 89 was the first in over 30 years).
only after the breakup of the USSR did tensions easy and the military trading begin.
Israel like many other countries does not have the industrial/economical basis to produce a mayor-weapon-system on its own power, but it had/has enough connections/links to Europe/USA to create a system tailored to its needs similar Sweden. The actual ARROW-system is a typical co-production. Still most money from the USA, but Israeli participation kept program-costs low. 😎
and like all such ‘assembly industries’, there are tech blackspots that arent covered. and for israel, independent design was one of them (amounst others).
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