I recall reading that the Soviet AF withdrew the MiG-21 from frontline combat service in the early 1980s – I don’t think there were any Soviet MiG-21 in the Warsaw Pact zone facing NATO (E. Germany, Poland etc) by the end of the cold war? There were still MiG-21s flying the Soviet Union, perhaps for training?

To late ’80s, some combat units:
10.orap. MiG-21R 1968-1988
18.gviap. MiG-21SM 1982-1989
27.gviap. MiG-21bis 1975-1992
66.oapib. MiG-21SMT 1975-1989
104.iap. Monito(Mongolia) MiG-21bis 1974-1989
115.gviap. MiG-21bis 1980-1989
159.gv.iap. Kluczewo(Poland) MiG-21SMT -1987
515.iap. Tököl(Hungary) MiG-21bis 1981-1988
582.iap. Chojna(Poland) MiG-21SMT 1972-1989
899.apib. Lielvevarde MiG-21SMT 1982-1989
927.iap. MiG-21bis 1983-1987

And at training units, live-firing centers, Mary(‘Russian Top-Gun’) MiG-21bis 1974-1987 etc..

Sainz,

Great photos! Any more information on them? They all appear to be Russian MiG-25PD’s…correct?

” Васильковского полка МиГ -25пдс “
http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/sextant59/album/102575/?&p=4

146.giap.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]219292[/ATTACH]

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6430/17093776.f/0_a1733_f6c598e8_orig

Any pics of Yak forgers operating from merchant or cargo ships ?

http://aviaforum.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=305843&d=1333646395

http://aviaforum.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=305844&d=1333646395

http://aviaforum.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=305845&d=1333646395

” Thread: MiG-21 – stealth jet “

Just an old rumour:
In 1974 at the MiG-21bis contract the Soviets said – You can buy it in natural metal or in gray. The gray coating reduces the reflection of radar signals. Is it true or not? No one has tested :stupid:

Taking a wild guess, we know that each course did take 4 weeks. 9-15 graduates, running over 2-3 years. Say around 240-300 frontline pilots. Which would fit rather well with the notion that every Sqn had at least one graduate by 1972.

Other source say: ” 8 crews per class, 9 class per year ” at the beginning. The reason, why I lost…It does not matter…
For me this is the really interesting part:

By 1972 the training schedule for the normal squadrons had changed and reflected lessons and tactics learned and created by Top Gun.

If you know any good public source which gives a lot of detail on this and details about how a Top-Gun graduate work as instructor when he went back to his squadron – please recommend me! Thanks in advance!

“The air fighting over North Vietnam lasted from spring of 1965 to January 1973, but included a long period between April 1968 and March 1972 when strikes on the North were either halted or severely restricted by political leaders. Consequently, regular air fighting took place during only 43 month of the 7,5 year conflict. During this time, USAF Phantoms were credited with 107,5 air victories, USN Phantoms with 38, and USMC Phantoms with one.”
“When one considers the scale of operations, an average return of less than 3,5 victories per month seems paltry. Yet three factors should be borne in mind. First the main object of the North Vietnamese Air Force was to remain in being as an effective fighting force. Stubborn resistance, outnumbered as they were, could have led to their virtual destruction. Consequently there were no many opportunities for the Phantoms to score. Second, the primary objective of the American strikes was to put munitions on target, in this they succeeded admirably, with minimal losses in air combat. Third, the manoeuvring dogfight had been considered a thing of the past and US pilots had not been trained for this type of fighting. [Similar thing for the SU and the drop of guns for the MiG-21] Only the USN in the last years of the war remedied this situation, which in part explains the success of May 10, 1972. Six-to-nil in one fight while badly outnumbered is excellent by any standards. For once the Phantom pilots had sufficient targets and they made good use of their opportunities.” [F-4 Phantom, Editor Ray Bonds]

A short summery of the events from 1965-73 showed that most airforces had learned from that. But it took years to retrain all pilots to the new demands. Many were nearing the end of their flying duty already and never got it for cost reasons f.e..

Top-Gun graduate means a pilot who has been trained to a level that allows him to teach the tactics learned at Top Gun to the “Normal” fleet pilots. By 1972 the training schedule for the normal squadrons had changed and reflected lessons and tactics learned and created by Top Gun. This meant that DACT training against A-4s (mostly) was standard pre-deployment training by 1972..

OK, I understand. Top-Gun graduates and their real numbers in the period 1969-72 – you are in the same dark like me 😎 I appreciate that you don’t guessing.

There I stand by my opinion that the average western pilot was better trained to make the most out of his plane.

I didn’t say the opposite. Never…
If you read-back objectively – my older posts here or on acig – you can see, the basic problem is:
20 years after the collaps of the ‘Wall’, when any kind of data became public about the WP’s pilot-training, weapons, exercises etc. the first reaction is: people are trying to deny the existence of it. Just because that wasn’t public earlier, just because that isn’t fitting perfectly in his previous opinion about that topic…
Just a good sample when I wrote first: ‘500s’ was a widespread unit-level training program. It’s not = ‘Russian Top-Gun’

Now it’s a relatively fair statement about the ‘Russain Top-Gun’ >

Just the advanced aerial combat training exercises were held at Mary similar to Red Flag.

But we had to wait more than 20 years for public real details straight from old Soviet era ’21-pilots what was going there in the ’70s ’80s – AWACS-hunt, ’21 vs ’23(act as F-15), spec-ammo for ’21 etc.

http://forums.airforce.ru/sovremennost/3667-planirovanie-vozdushnogo-boya-3/#post73501

http://forums.airforce.ru/sovremennost/3667-planirovanie-vozdushnogo-boya-3/#post73583

http://forums.airforce.ru/sovremennost/3667-planirovanie-vozdushnogo-boya-3/#post73511

By 1972 most USN F-4 pilots deployed to Nam had been through Top-Gun or similar DACT training.

With these words it’s a fair statement. But I was talking about Top-Gun graduates only:

AFAIK even those, who has air victory in 1972 not everyone was Top-Gun graduate…

Some sources say all pilots

Other ‘sources’ say: ” By the time aerial activity over the North resumed, most Navy squadrons had a TOPGUN graduate. “
Do you know any reliable source which gives the real numbers? The number of all Top-Gun graduates by years? At least at the beginning, to 1972?
Or we must to guess by these ‘sources’ and by the words of Top-Gun instructors? >
” April 15, 1972 Air combat resumes in Vietnam with improved results; all but two kills are by Top Gun graduates. “
” First graduate who was under 30′ arrived to Miramar with a class in 1976 only. ”

Also: How many US Navy pilots served in 1972? That was a really large force then…