However, how much advantage they might gain from those slow-speed maneuvers is unknown, but the Mig-21 never liked slow speeds in general.
21 is better at high speeds and surprisingly at very low speeds – in stall turns and trimmed alpha.
21′ & low speeds – interesting reading on pages 287-295 >
Steve Davies – RED EAGLES
http://www.google.com/books?id=6yJ8gfVAm2YC&printsec=frontcover&dq=red+eagles&lr=&hl=hu&rview=1&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false
page 289. >
” The MiG’s slow speed capability was incredible, but not as good as that of the F/A-18….”
” Phelan explained what “treeing” someone meant:
You treed someone by getting them to run out of airspeed so that they could no longer pull a loop. If they tried to, you knew they would fall off to either side, or they would bob their noses up and down. The Soviets had a terrific airplane in the MiG-21. Hands down, I could kill anyone other than an F-16 or an F/A-18 in that airplane. The F-16 could fly over the top of me and get in behind and the F/A-18 had even better low-speed handling. As for the others, I would do the tree. Taking the F-14 as an example, I would try and get them to go vertical a couple of times and then park right behind them. “
page 295.:
” I had just treed this F-15 and am pulling up right behind this guy with less than 100 knots of airspeed. All of a sudden, this huge F-15 just starts falling back down towards me, out of control. He had completely run out of airspeed. “
” back on the ground the Eagle pilot told to Phelan: I got lost in myself. For a minute I thought I was fighting a real MiG.”
page 288.:
” As part of PEACE PHARAOH(1979), Egyptian pilots had been trained to fly the Phantom in the United States, and Larsen was one of the IPs:”
” One day we went out and as part of some F-4 advanced handling sorties, I showed him slow loops, entered from only 350 knots when the usual minimal entry speed was 500 knots. The F-4 would flop about at the top, and the maneuver was kind of prohibited. I asked him what he thought. He told me he could do the same maneuver in the MiG-21 with only 275 knots of entry speed. “
And the best which was known for the Egyptian pilot was the MiG-21MF, he had no experience with -21bis.
If you have proper questions, even the older ex-YuAF pilots have answers for you with exercises and tactics in the 230-250km/h range with the ‘-21’.
Despite the fact that Yugoslavia had not received the low-speed tactical instructions from the Soviets, like the WP countries(Bulgaria, GDR, Hungary, Poland in the period 1972-75).
Here are scans from Hungarian Mig-21BIS manual(from colleague Sainz)
martinez,
That scan is a “cut” from a photo of a page of the original Soviet document(not ‘Hungarian BIS manual’ ;)).
Photo taken in 1975 at Kuschevskaya training base on conversion training for -21bis(to help the learning for pilots, in those times there were no enough books for all ‘students’ only a few in the class-room). I scanned them from the original b&w negatives >



” F-4E 68-0443/CR 32nd TFS @ Soesterberg AB circa. 1971-72? “
http://www.fencecheck.com/forums/index.php/topic,17821.msg247924.html#msg247924
” F-4E 68-0452/CR 32 TFS at Soesterberg AB July 1972, photog again unknown. “
http://www.fencecheck.com/forums/index.php/topic,17821.msg212340.html#msg212340
“F-4E 68-0438 32 TFS 1971”
http://aircraftslides.com/Auction/AuctionDetail.aspx?ID=641055
Awesome picture…
I am dreaming about same colour photos of GDR based Soviet MiG-21SM,SMT,bis from the early-mid ’70s too :diablo:
Sens,
Thanks for the W.D.Knoppe story !
In Europe in the early 1970s, the USAFE was worried more about Warsaw Pact bombers than WP fighters… therefore the AIM-4D could still be viable for intercepting non-fighters.
Peacetime QRA is one thing, a war is something completely different…
I have doubts if any USAFE co. send F-4s with AIM-4 to fight against 16.VA MiG-21SM,SMT,bis with R-60(from 1972-73). Or not ?…
But my surprise is – The AIM-4D’s were in use in combat in NAM on ” June 2nd 1972 ” >
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUcloQwXZ54
I think the situation was not the same like this(at least in the frontline in Vietnam) >
After prooving to be a bad missile for the F-4 in Nam with the F-4D the USAF started to withdraw the AIM-4D in 1969.
The first to withdraw the AIM-4D were the squadrons in NAM
If this date is fact >
As the last AIM-4D was withdrawn in 1973,
The photo from September 1973 is more interesting >
(if the date for this photo is fact too…:)
September 1973 – 32ndTFS F-4E with AIM-4D
And why I can not find on the list the tip.50bis ?

‘OKB MiG’ is a fine reference 😉
Btw. When talking the best all around turn performer among exported Mig-21versions, definitely the Mig-21PFM (Fishbed-F)according to manual data and memoirs of my colleagues, former fighter pilots of CSLA.
I agree.
I heard many same comments from ’21-pilots’ even for the MiG-21PF also.
Same public note from the book – Miroslav Irra: the MiG-21 in the Czechoslovak Airforce 1962-2005 Vol.I. page 11. >
” Howevwr Mr.Jan Oberfalzer was of a curious opinion, probably not isolated, that the MiG-21PF was the best among all the “twenty-ones” to fly aerobatics. “
But I am a bit cautious with these kind of ‘pilot-talks’, because there were relatively few Fishbed pilots who flew MiG-21F-13 and -21bis also, even more few who converted straight from -21F-13 to -21bis.
Thanks ‘alfakilo’ !
I hope I understand you properly >
As a F-4 squadron, around 1976.
” Later, the squadron was the first in USAFE to establish DACT programs with non-aggressor and non-USAF adversaries. “
So, the first official DACT in USAFE was at 525th with F-4E’s sometimes in 1976.
This :
DACT is only one form of air combat training…it is Air Combat Tactics (ACT) flown with two or more different types of aircraft under ROE that is less restrictive than ROE in Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM) and Air Combat Maneuvers (ACM).
Pre planned, with briefing, debriefing, documented…
While ‘unofficial’ DACT was routine in USAFE earlier – bouncing etc… – USAFE F-4’s vs NATO ‘playmates’ > Lightnings, Mirages, F-104s…
” In 1974, the 525th was nominated by USAFE again for the Hughes trophy, and received a commendable citation in a close finals competition. That year the squadron established Dissimilar Air Combat Tactics (DACT) training with the F-5 aggressor squadron at RAF Alconbury, England. Later, the squadron was the first in USAFE to establish DACT programs with non-aggressor and non-USAF adversaries. “
You can read this in many internet ‘sources’ >
http://www.elmendorf.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=10433
http://wapedia.mobi/en/525th_Fighter_Squadron
But >
http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f5_30.html
” The RF-4C-equipped 10th Tactical Reconnaissance Wing at RAF Alconbury was chosen as the parent of the USAF in Europe’s aggressor unit. This formed as the 527th Tactical Fighter Training and Aggressor Squadron in April of 1976 and was equipped with the F-5E in May. It began providing aggressor support to European-based combat units in September. It was subsequently renamed as the 527th Aggressor Squadron. “
Where is the proper date ?
” It began providing aggressor support to European-based combat units in September(1976).”
None DACT in USAFE pre 1976 ?
” Later the squadron(525th) was the first in USAFE to establish DACT programs with non-aggressor and non-USAF adversaries. “
Since when ? 1976 ? -77 ? With F-4 or with F-15 ?
Were there any type-specific DACT in USAFE to simulate MiG-23M(ML) ?
Since when ?
What NATO aircraft(s) simulated the Flogger ?
Reported by GDR MiG pilots and to read in DHS DIE FLUGZEUGE DER NATIONALEN VOLKSARMEE, ISBN 3-935761-86-4
The SPS distracts ~500 kp of thrust from the military thrust. The single purpose was to lower the constant rising landing speeds by ~40 km/h. By the way the F-104 had a “SPS” for the same purpose.By Google translate:
System SPSSystem to reduce the approach speed and the touchdown from the version MiG-21 SPS. To lift increase was the MiG-21 equipped with wing flaps, which were adjusted in three levels. About 4 km before the touchdown was the flap to the “landing” the driving. At a certain speed is switched automatically to the system PLC. This air was drained from the engine and pipes to the Tragflächenhinterkante passed over. There, it flows from one column on the flap and ensures a better flow around the flap profile. The result was a boost increase and thus a possible reduction of Endanfluggeschwindigkeit and touchdown at about 40 km / h (approx. 21 kt)
Requirements:
Speed of the engine 50-100%
A system switch
Throttle lever (throttle) on PLC-lock
Landeklappen> 30 ° ausgefahren
a switching of the afterburner was not with possiblehttp://www.flugzeugforum.de/forum/archive/index.php/t-38421.html
using Google Translate allows the related requests.
Reported by GDR MiG pilots
It is your unfair reference only…..again
I am sure NVA-LSK pilots knew and used this flap-setup properly.
Sens,
The basics…again.
In this case the SPS blowing system is not working, only the flap in the 0-25 degree range 😀
You can see the ‘system’ in work at 2:45 in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8PPioO6qHQ
Also a nice ‘no-flap landing’ by the yellow bird at the end of the video…..at what speed ?
Also, I do not remember but manufactured used different limit G philosophy for F and newer models
There were a lot of – not so well known – structural reinforcements on tip.50bis & tip.75bis even compared with SM,MF not to mention -21F-13.
so direct comparison is more difficult.
I agree.
Plain trailing edge flaps, I reckon, is not combat configuration as isn’t in F-15.
On the late model MiG-21’s(with SPS wings) recommended for lower speed engagements.
Russians called this system – ‘floating-flap’.
You can select the 25 degree flap position, drag vs hydraulic pressure, as you decelerate flap comes out ‘automatically'(in proportion to the speed(drag) from 0 to 25degrees).
For landing purposes only!
Please do not take firm statements if you can not find something in your library.
‘Schorsch’ & ‘adriann’
Thanks for the objectivity !
The data – numbers, facts – much more usable than a vague term > ‘most agile’
Did you find any data for the low-speed maneuverability of the MiG-21bis(or SM,SMT) if the flap is in the 0-25 degree ‘air combat position’ ?
The MiG-21F13 was the most agile variant already.
I do not care such generalizations.
If yo do not have real data the straight talk is > I do not know.
MiG-21 data:
For you even the basics are too much > MiG-21 tip.50bis ?