LMRaptor has done an excellent job of explaining this, but to back him up:

Yes and no. It depends on the situation.

This is very simple: professional fighter pilots took MiGs and flew them to their limits to a) determine their strengths, and b) determine their weaknesses. First, the test pilots did it. Then the Air Force and Navy’s best tactical aviators did it. The impressions they formed were professional in every respect.

In my eyes, the opinion of USAF jocks on MiG-23 is roughly as professional as an opinion of boys having stolen a Ferrari from father’s garage and taken few rides.

The tactical aviators didn’t really care about what the jet was built from, how the engine was cooled, or any of that other technical stuff. They just wanted to know how to kill it. Their conclusions were that the MiG-17 and MiG-21 were potent adversaries in the right hands; the MiG-23MS was not. Those are valid, professional opinions whichever way you cut it – as was proven over the Gulf of Sidra and over Iraq in 1991.

hiya!

not trying to sound nit picky, and i do realize perfectly well the info may not have been available, but from an honest curiosity point of view when reading the stories (if the info becomes/is available) would loved to know whether the pilots were referring to the mig-21F,or the MF/bis in their recollections. Its a very small thing, but would add to the accounts

Migman

That’s useful feedback. I will have to check that if the book goes to a reprint. I wrote the book with the general reader in mind (if you’ve read my Strike Eagle book, you’ll know I can be very technical if I want to be), but perhaps I went a little too far in not wishing to encumber the reader with things I didn’t think they’d care about? Thanks for being so constructive in your feedback.

hiya!
BTW if you ever find out the bort number of the afghan Su-22 the US acquired, i can provide the basic history behind the ac if you want 🙂 *pretty sure it was 804, but 2 defected, so could be one, other… or both!)

All the best!

I am definitely going to take you up on the offer. I have a photo of a Su-22 over Groom, taken in 1992, but it looks to me like an EGAF example. Should I PM you, or will you get in touch with me?

Cheers

Steve

My Hollyday is up and you just sold yourself another book Steve:)
Just ordered it.

B.t.w. can you reckomend any others books(other authors) on the same material or later migs and Sukhois models?

Thanks

Excellent 🙂

I can’t say that I know of any other books that detail FME by the US in the same way as the Red Eagles book. At least, nothing out in the shops now.

However, I do know someone who is working on a Red Hats book, but once again, it (like the Red Eagles book) is not really aimed at the sort of technically-inclined reader on these forums.

Col. Gail Peck, the man behind the Constant Peg programme, is writing his own book about the Red Eagles. I have read his manuscript and it is very interesting – as a work-in-progress, it will steadily evolve into a very worthwhile addition to any book shelf. That said, it is not at all technically-driven, and may once again disappoint those readers here that are interested in some of the more complex and involved descriptions of aircraft and systems.

Sorry I cannot be of more help at this time.

Cheers

Steve

The difference is that our pilots loved MiG-23.

I am sure they did – it certainly had some excellent characteristics. Bear in mind, however, that the opinions in the book (and on the forum) come from men who had flown the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 before they ever set eyes on the Flogger, so their frame of reference is quite different.

That was given to me by ground maintenance crew from Bulgaria and retired MiG-23MS russian pilot.

You see, that’s the kind of useful contribution that I can actually work with to provide a counterbalance should the book ever go to a second edition. Thanks.

That is maybe too rude don’t you think?

No, I think that it is a proportional response to him saying that my interviewees talked “crap”. I have offered him the chance to question them directly, and I hope he takes them up on this. It is also a reflection of inane comments that he has made previously here about FME, which effectively brackets everything I now read of his.

And in my post i posted what are the thoughts of again experienced pilots(Bulgarian) that flew MiG-23BN/ML.. variants about these statements. Call my view biased, because i am Bulgarian too, but i value their opinion more and they stated that such things are just not true.

I think that time-scales are important here. The Red Eagles operated the BN (officially, at least) between 1980 and 1988. If your Bulgarian contacts have conflicting views that are based on experiences in the same timescale, then it would be interesting to explore these further. I would expect them to be very credible. The Red Eagles did not fly the ML version.

You have to bear in mind that not all of the Red Eagles agreed with one another on some issues, particularly the on the MiG-23. It is perfectly possible that some Bulgarian Flogger pilots will disagree with some American Flogger pilots, therefore. No big deal, really.

And as was said the reason is that the fuel automatic must keep enough fuel pressure, so the engine will have normal burning process. When the height is increased, the RPM of the engine is increased too, to the point at 12 000m, when the engine works on maximal. In that stage the only way to again retain full control of the engine is to reduce the height.

Interesting explanation.

So it does seem that aircraft identifications is neither a strong point of US-pilots nor of the author.

In the first instance, getting a confirmed ID on aircraft that no longer exist, which are captured in only a handful of images, and which are technically still classified is not easy.

Secondly, the operational limits of the a/c were not the same as the speeds the Red Eagles flew them at.

So, no, your statement is not accurate.

I`d recommend to all readers to check some facts about the R-29(or any) engine design and operation prior to start reading the book, then you will find it very amusing and asking, what a crap he is writting there??!! Apparently, the author never made that to read something about the R-29 filling the book with dumb anecdotes about blades hitting the engine casing and ripping everything apart.

Martinez

The ‘crap’ comments about the motor shedding blades are made by experienced fighter pilots who flew these two versions of Flogger (and the MS in particular), who ran the mishap investigations into the three losses and two additional spin incidents, and had access to Soviet accident and engineering reports that detailed the problem quite clearly.

If you want to argue with them about this, then I invite you and everyone else here to visit the Red Eagles forum – http://fjphotography.com/constantpeg/forum/ – where you can put your questions to two of them directly. I will then stand back and watch them expose you for the clown that you are.

Anyone with even a bit of knowledge about jet engines would know what will be the cause when abruptly switching engine regimes from full AB to idle at supersonic and how the pilot will feel that.

Actually, the issue referenced above, as discussed in the book, has nothing to do with AB. It is about structural loads twisting the motor mounts during spins, and the propensity of the MS in particular to spin with little or no tactile warning.

Then you turn everything up side down, like telling that Soviets not having superior materials in engines used some “strange methods” to cool turbine blades. They drilled holes to cool them down, but today at least half of modern engines if not all have drilled holes in high-temp turbine blades and are cooled internally as well as externally. Why just not say, they came up wih something new not known for Yanks at that time?

That’s exactly what the book says.

Anyway, I`m glad that someone raised this question, bcs after reading this book the majority of adolescent aviation freaks is thinking what a piece of $hit the Mig-23 really was.

If that’s the impression they get about the MS or BN, then good. Compared to other contemporary fighters designed for the same tasks, it is perfectly true.