FedaykinThing is Buran, what is a 4th generation fighter 😉
Nobody can give a straight answer…
FedaykinNot this silly Generation nonsense again! It is a meaningless comparator, in what way do you define it? The JF-17 has features that match contemporary aircraft that have the 4th generation label that people bandy about. The only reason you bring up the 3rd generation label is to satisfy a personal need to feel superior, after that it is a pointless exercise in d1ck swinging.
When I say built with significant Chinese support I mean exactly that: It is CURRENTLY built with significant Chinese support. If you want to talk about DEVELOPMENT then yes it was almost entirely developed by the Chinese. The thing is I haven’t seen a single Pakistani military official express any upset over that, they have been entirely pragmatic and there have been multiple articles released in AFM where Pakistani officials state they couldn’t of done it without China. Pakistan can’t build a fighter on its own and I have seen no evidence they are particularly bothered by that, the same goes for other Pakistani defence programs.
Lets be brutally honest India has needed significant outside help to get Teja to the point it is at now, when Tejas is in full squadron service then lets have a talk about comparing it to the JF-17 until then it is a boorish exercise in aforementioned d1ck swinging.
FedaykinTo be honest BlackArcher but my response to that is:
Excuses, Excuses and yet more Excuses!
I was being generous considering India started talking about developing the Tejas or a similar type in the 70’s. There was a program in the 1980’s you can’t skip around that fact.
Saying India has delayed Tejas entry because it lacks fancy electronic x or composite y is nonsense! India bit off more than it could chew massively delaying the program, do I need to say Kaveri? The Indian Air Force has had no choice to wait, it is nothing to do with waiting for a prefered systems fit imho.
I would agree that addition of a BVR missile, air-to-air refueling and a EW jammer does not define what is combat capable. On the other hand talking about possible future capabilities on the Tejas has little relevance in a thread about the Pakistan air force and the types it fields beyond possible threat assessment.
The JF-17 is a low risk design built with significant Chinese support but the reward is aircraft in Squadron service that have a very respectable development path and offers much of what on paper the Tejas might do.
FedaykinAt best it is “RN has a look at Scorpion with a mind to the fast upcoming retirement of the Hawk T1 currently operated by 736NAS”.
As it is in town so to say and is designed to be cheap to operate with certain interesting extra features no harm having a look at it but don’t hold your breath expecting an order. As already mentioned there isn’t even a staff requirement yet.
When it does come to a staff requirement I would expect howls of protest if anything but the Hawk T2 was selected. My gut feeling is there will be a follow on order of Hawk T2 to allow retirement of the T1/T1A in RAF and RN service whilst BAE Systems has the capability to service an order. Remember the mischievous fun the RN had a while back when one of their officers talked about second hand F-16.
FedaykinWell you would like us to believe that a 8G , 26 deg AoA max fighter on one side of the border is somehow miraculously better than another with similar performance capabilities on the other side of thr border. All because one is integrated with SD-10 missiles just sometime ago..even though all current examples fly without aerial refueling, any laser designation pod, any HMDS..
We know why the PAF rushed the JF-17 into service. Far better to induct something that is affordable than scrounging around for more retired or stored second hand Mirage airframes to keep up a semblance of numbers in service. They still prefer to get second hand F-16s, even when so many JF-17s are rolling off the assembly line. I think that it makes it obvious that given a choice what level of fighters the PAF would like to have. But like prudent people with near empty or tiny pockets, they’re making do with what they can get for the little they can afford.
Had the IAF been starved of funds, with no likelihood of getting Western fighters because they’re unaffordable or like thr Gripen, the OEM country is unwilling to sell, they’d have been trying to make the best with what they could get.
I am going to take a stab in the dark here but are you comparing the JF-17 to the Tejas by any chance.
It isn’t issue of if one aircraft is better than the other on paper, the Tejas might well just be that in comparison to the JF-17. The issue is which aircraft is currently in service…
The Tejas started development in the early 80’s and as of yet hasn’t been released for service whilst the JF-17 started serious development in the 90’s and is in full service. However good the Tejas might end up being it doesn’t remove the fact that it’s development has been painfully protracted.
Also I wouldn’t exactly say Pakistan rushed the JF-17 into service, first flight was 2003, PAF started flight evaluation of an initial batch in 2007 with initial release to service in 2010 of 14 aircraft with No.26 Black Spiders squadron. They now have more than one squadron operating the type with others converting vs no Tejas squadrons in India.
FedaykinFedaykin. You really do need to reread our replies.
Which ones? I ignore JSR.
I have made my position clear. Worrying about air to air fit outs when ISIS are raging your country is absurd. Calling the F-16, one of most successful Western fighters ever made useless in its primary role is absurd.
FedaykinSure, the excellence of the RSAF is well known. Guys couldn’t even manage the houthis before they went running around the world over/GCC and what not for aid.
I’d suspect the Iraqis have more of an idea of what they need than random individuals on the net.
See above.
Now, you are the one being absurd. Quoting meaningless statistics without context. Next what? Stating the P-51 or P-47 had incredible kill ratios so they’d be better than more modern aircraft tech?
Saudi have maintained a high intensity strike campaign against Yemen so yes they could squash Iraq like a bug if it so wished.
It is a meaningless statistic that rather puts paid to the idea the F-16 is useless.
FedaykinMinimum deterrence is entirely different from basic QRA with obsolete weapons.
Nope! I wouldn’t call the AIM-9M and AIM-7M obsolete and frankly they are secondary to dropping bombs on ISIS the far more pressing issue at the moment!
AIM-9M is still the primary short range air to air missile on the F22 for fecks sake!
QRA is about verification not shooting stuff down.
FedaykinIraq can buy whatever shiny Russian air to air and ground to air equipment it wants, doesn’t bother me but wasting their time in a pi$$ing contest with Saudi Arabia is a waste when THEY HAVE ISIS ROCKING AROUND THEIR COUNTRY! The F-16 is a darn good aircraft and if it has the capability to drop stuff on ISIS then that is far more important than its air to air fit.
Fedaykin…or simply turn to other vendors who sell you what you want, not what they want…
I have no issue with that, if Iraq wants to buy a huge fleet of shiny Mig-31 and S300 why should I care? On the other hand those Shiny Mig-31 and S300 will be as about useful as a chocolate spoon in a blast furnace taking on ISIS.
FedaykinSo if we had mig35 and mig31 and some nebo m radars and s300v4 units… The Saudis would still squash us like a bug? Really? All these items are eminently affordable for iraq if there was a will to “break away” from kowtowing to Washington. And Saudi would have to spend a looooot.of money on trying to effectively break through our defences then. Perhaps giving them a pause for thought that an 40 year old sparrow missile won’t.
I hazard a guess that the earlier F16 kills you mention were against f15s and typhoon class aircraft supported by awacs? Or are the Saudis flying mig21mf and mig23ms armed with k13 and guided with old gci?
Yes without a doubt, you might knock a few jets out but they would still squish you like a bug!
Deal with ISIS! Anything else is a distraction! ISIS don’t have any fighter capability whatsoever! Drop bombs on them before worrying about advanced air to air capabilities!
FedaykinIf you spent your money on MiG-31, MiG-35, Nebo & S300 in current circumstances, it wouldn’t matter what happened between you & Saudi Arabia. IS would take them off you at ground level. You’re talking like a man in a burning house saying he needs an expensive new burglar alarm & door locks, while ignoring the water hose that would enable him to put out the fire.
Agreed this is an absurd debate, having a d1ck swinging contest with the GCC over fighter aircraft and their capabilities when you have ISIS raging around your country is crazy.
FedaykinThey would still smash you like a bug!
Sorry I respect you, but your obsession with going toe to toe air to air with your neighbors is a silly joke when you have the more pressing issue of ISIS!
The F-16IQ is more than adequate for your needs it is an absurd joke to call it useless when you need its ground attack capabilities and its QRA abilities are more than enough for the current environment.
The F-16 has over 74 kills for no loss, many with the early model Sidewinder and Sparrow models you are so hung up over. Get a grip!
FedaykinSo what?
There is no way Iraq could stand up to Saudi Arabia or Turkey any time soon so why bother?
Minimum QRA is more than adequate when there are more pressing issues like taking on ISIS!
FedaykinRight now the potential aggressors against iraq are the kingdom of Saudi Arabia and it’s allies. In what way is the aim-9m and aim-7m enough to deter them from imposing air supremacy and blasting our army, helicopters and infrastucture to smithereens in support of the “iraqi spring” (as they euphemistically call isis on their tv stations)…
Answers on a postcard
Po box 111123
Ministry of defence
Air force command secretariat
Karkh
Baghdad
Republic of iraqPs fedaykin. They have two US radar stations active now (one in Tikrit and one in nassiriya) as well as several dozen visual observation posts along the Saudi and Kuwait border. They also have radar systems coming from other countries but it’s not clear what they got… Chinese and Russian systems were mentioned but no types mentioned in the iraqi mod publication about a year and a half ago.
Sorry to break this to you sheytanelkebir but if Saudi Arabia and her allies wanted to bomb Iraq into the Stone Age they could do with impunity regardless of what you could do.
I realise it hurts that Iraq’s neighbours (except Iran) will have a more advanced Air to Air weapons fit, but so what? you haven’t got a hope in hell of out spending them! Saudi Arabia will always field a more advanced airforce than Iraq right up to when they run out of oil.
What stops Saudi Arabia doing that is the fact it would **** off the United States of America! AIM-9M and AIM-7M equipped F-16IQ allow Iraq to maintain a respectable QRA flight. Frankly the F-16IQ’s PGM and reconnaissance capability is more useful when you have lunatics like ISIS running about your country than having a d1ck swinging contest with GCC states who can easily outspend you on advanced fighter jets and missiles.
You recently pointed out how some Saudi Arabian jets flew over the border and Iraqi army lines leading to a suspicious mortar attack by ISIS only the other day. If the Iraq air force can maintain a half decent QRA with the F-16IQ then Saudi Arabia will have to face some rather embarrassing pictures in the international press and some pointed questions from the United States.
Give it time as long as Iraq doesn’t completely implode you will get something better than the AIM-9M and AIM-7M.
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