FedaykinThe V-22 AEW will be perfect for CVF but seems a tad too big for ADS. If ADS can carry then it would be perfect.
Yeah it is undoubtably a good fit for CVF in its STOVL configuration.
Even if it is retrofitted with the systems from the ASAC 7 it still will have a qualative advantage over the old type. Add in the ability to deliver tanking and COD it seems crazy not to buy it. What would be the operational range of an F35B oerating off CVF if she could meet up with a V22 with a palletised HDU unit. It would also add in an increased safety margin as F35B low on fuel returning from a mission could meet the tanker on the way back.
FedaykinCDG is a CTOL and the catapults that allow it to operate E-2c are the biggest advantage over Gorky. The current ADS size was arrived upon after eliminating designs the size of cavour and slightly bigger ones.
They just have to get an AEW radar on the V-22, its a perfect fit for several navies. Certainly the type would be perfect for the RN’s STOVL configured CVF and the IN’s STOBAR Vik (+ads).
Add to that the fact that a palletised air to air refueling system is being developed for the V-22 another problem the RN’s F35 and IN’s Mig29 face is solved.
Throw in its ability to satisfy the COD role for both navies surely its a winner?
FedaykinIt’s already widely known as ‘Dave’, ‘The Dave’, or ‘Dave B’ among current RAF aircrew. Officially it will be the Lightning FG.Mk 1
Lightning FG.Mk 1 sounds nice to me.
It will interesting to see what kind of rivalry will develop between the UK Typhoon and Lightning communities.
FedaykinI think most people will drop the “II” bit anyway and stick with Lightning.
Academic really whilst RAF and RN crew will probably use the Lightning name American crew will use whatever nick name they fancy.
FedaykinI guess if you didn’t want half the cockpit, most of the electronic suite, or the engine with it then yeah.
But again what would be the point of blocking such a deal?
On the grand scheme of things whilst I’m sure America would like to sell F16 or F18, not to the level of blocking Sweden selling the Gripen to Switzerland.
FedaykinAs mentioned, the conversion of an MRA-4 is probably the only realistic choice, which is a great pity. The best bet, given all the troubles with the Nimrod fleet, might be to simply scrap the rebuild program, and either have BAE build totally new MRA-4s, or switch to another airframe. New build MRA-4s would make some sense, though I am concerned about the prospect of building old flaws in new aircraft. The problem, obviously, is that switching to a totally new aircraft like the A-320 would bring new problems, and most notably, delays. It could easily take five more years to get an A-320 patrol aircraft ready for service entry. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as it may prove better to wait a few more years to get an aircraft that is 30-50 years (depending on which way you count it) newer!
There is good potential for a British-designed A-320 derivative, especially if combining the AEW and ELINT roles. If you add up all the different versions and numbers, it could be thirty or more aircraft, possibly more if the budget were available.
As for Jackonicko’s suggestion that 5-6% of GDP spending is needed, I do disagree on the figure – a lot more than now could be done with 3-3.5%, and more pallatably. The good thing is that finally there does seem to be a rising consensus that the armed forces have been run down too far, especially given the tempo of current operations.
Too late now the changing over to a new airframe (a320 for example) for the ASW/maritime patrol role would crazy considering what has already been sunk into the MRA4 program. As for the ELINT role I just don’t think the Nimrod is the answer far better to move over to a newer slightly larger type from the second hand market.
FedaykinI don’t understand why people have problems with the name Lightning? It honours a couple of good types from the lead nations and only the very simple minded would confuse it with a WWII era piston engine fighter or a
50’s jet.
I was very pleased when they chose the name.
FedaykinI suspect that the only option might be to convert an MRA4 airframe in a crash program to R1 spec and just dob out the cash regardless. The capability is needed right now and there are plenty of other candidates for grounding to save money if the R1 offers so much utility in current operations.
I agree that the money should be stumped up for this one but I don’t think the MRA4 is the answer. It would mean delays and increased costs joining an already flawed build program and as has been said earlier its really getting a bit too small for the role. A commercial airliner type from the second hand market is the ideal solution.
FedaykinWhat about a leased option? Surely something could be sorted out with Airbus or a similar company where the RAF would lease a number of planes fitted with Helix similar to the planned FSTA. Problem again with that though would be delivery schedule. I can’t imagine anything being available until early next decade. Seems that the need for new aircraft is mounting up. I even read on one forum that the MoD is planning to get rid of the Army’s Lynx pretty soon and replace them with entirely new helicopters or transfer Sea Kings over. I can see some major cuts on the horizon (starting with Typhoon tranche 3).
The systems fitted are just too sensative for a Leased airframe.
The problem with cutting Tranche 3 as is often suggested is the punative payments we would then have to make to the other partner nations.
FedaykinCould probably fit it all in an A321, which would be cheaper to buy & operate than an A330. For extended range, you could fit auxiliary fuel tanks in the hold. Containerised tanks are commercially available (so relatively cheap) & already tested & certified to civilian safety standards for the A320 series, because of the extended-range corporate jet models.
Yeah as I said in my previous post the process I outlined could be done with any commercial type we choose.
FedaykinI’d like to see a normal airliner purchased for the task of replacing the nimrod airframe, that way you have tons of crew comfort and cabin space,very long range, the ability to buy an of the shelf jet and just add the kit thats needed (3 years max from start to finish?) and that lovely abilty to paint the jet up like a normal airliner and not atract much attention.
Actually Distiller your probably not far wrong with that, see alot of the problem, at least in my eyes is these guys and girls sat in MOD are missing one vital thing needed to get the procurment process sorted: interest, see there just doing another job in there life long journey of going from job to job for whatever reasons, there not truly interested in the buisness but just see it as another name to add to the list of established employers they’ve worked for. I know from my perspective ive seen this in so many walks of life, manly employment where people arn’t really enthusiastic and interested in things and it works to the detrement of the whole organisation/country/world if looking at the big picture. Don’t get me wrong i’m sure theres some fantastic and clever people out there working for the departments i’m running down but i bet they know it themselves that some people arn’t really in it for the right reasons and are just there for the convenience/pay check.
Yes it wouldn’t be difficult or even expensive if they stuck to a carefully managed program.
Lets start saying that they decide on an a330 based solution:
1. Select suitable second hand a330 airframes on commercial market.
2. Purchase first airframe.
3.Send chosen airframe to commercial overhaul facility (this can be done as a competative tender). Get facility to overhaul aircraft and remove anything not required.
4. Now send aircraft to Uk based commercial facility (For example Marshalls of Cambridge).[/LIST]
5. Get Uk commercial facility to fit equipment racks compatible with Nimrod R1 systems and cut any holes for pods and external equipment as well as fit none sensative mission equipment.
6. Retire R1 in worse state and start stripping out mission systems.
7.Send a330 to RAF facility for fitting of sensative equipment taken out of R1 followed by a flight test program.
8. Repeat process to replace remaining R1.
9. Once all replacement aircraft are in service start rolling program to introduce Helix upgrade.
All sensible and easily achievable on a budget, the whole £600million pounds to introduce Helix system with new airframe is a red herring! It’s far more logical to swap what we already have into newer airframes and then introduce the Helix upgrade as part of a rolling upgrade program later.
This process could be done with the other types on the table as well.
Fedaykinyeah i’d agree with you there SeaLord, i too am amazed at the amount of sillyness going on inside some goverment departments, troubling thing is even when/if we switch from labour to conservative in the future i think stupidity is just so ingrained in goverment departments it won’t make any differance. I’m just glad i don’t pay any taxes at the moment so im not funding there stupidity, Saying that even if I added up all the tax i’ve ever payed in my life i bet it still wouldnt cover the value of one little bolt or screw used on a typhoon.
Anyways back on the subject briefly, apart from one newspaper report do we have any more info on this, as in hard evidence, it sounds like the sort of story an Editor of a paper would let be published without needing any proof, much like when we get the ‘un-named sources close to xyz said’ stories every few weeks that very very often turn out to be baseless rubbish.
We can only hope that it is baseless rubbish! Problem is it just has that air of truth about it that worries me. We can’t avoid the fact that something has to be done about the Nimrod R1 I just don’t see them making the 2025 out of service date.
FedaykinOnce again the UK MoD is reaping the misery of its own incompetence. A decade+ ago they should have sat down and asked what their future large aircraft requirements would be, the answer, Nimrod MR2 replacement, Nimrod R1 replacement and future tanker. With that in mind an airframe should have been picked and the then work carried on from their. Hell BAe have even said they could build new Nimrod airframes and they are doing wings as we speak so there is at least one option there already. If they really wanted they could have thrown ASTOR into the mix too.
Instead we have the old Nimrod airframes falling apart, with no R1 replacement on the cards (proper one anyway), BAe scrabbling around for airframes good enough to attach individually unique wings to and the joke that is the tanker program. Why on earth the MoD is so incapable of decisiveness I do not know. I can actually not find word strong enough with which to criticise the organisation.
Amen to that, the Nimrod MRA4 should of been entirely now build it would of been cheaper. The tanker which should of been in my opinion a mixed a310/a330 order with the advanced boom as well (I don’t entirely see the logic of leaving it off considering the flexibility it offers) and it should of been an outright order rather than the stupid PFI agreement.
From that they could then choose either a Nimrod based replacement for the R1 or an a330 solution with maybe the Global Express being another option (I think that would be a bit too small).
As for the Global Express with its range and altitude performance I think that would of been an ideal replacement for the Canberra PR9 (Along with UAV’s which we are now buying from General Atomics). Rather than the SAR Radar put the optics and sensors from the PR9 in the underslung canoe fairing along with a WESCAM MX15 and we would have a far more suitable platform then the MR2 for operations over Afghanistan/Iraq.
Sensible planning a few years ago and we wouldn’t be in the mess we are now.
As I said before “Spend to Save!”
FedaykinShe was a bit of a dog, when I was still working for the offshore oil industry a few of my friends discussed her when the MoD were trying to sell the ship and said they’d recommended not going near it with a barge pole. Even if the RN wanted another DSV, why not just buy a commercial off the shelf design? One thing the offshore oil industry knows about is dive support and sub sea engineering ops, probably an awful lot more expertise than the RN in the field, and the commercial designs are excellent. And the fact that the RN have just used commercially chartered and leased offshore support vessels for the role since retiring Challenger illustrates that there is no technical reason why they needed to design their own ship. Cynical it may be, but I see just a mix of pride (we know better…) and political pork barrel largesse with tax payers money on this one.
Interesting to hear she was a bit of a dog.
Personally I agree that it was silly building her in the first place when there were commercial ones available for sale or lease.
FedaykinHMS Challenger is a bit of a farce anyway considering its was sold after only 10 years of use.
I do remember seeing her on a navy day at Portsmouth whilst I was still in shorts:D
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