Fedaykin

Yes this is True! Those Pakistanis that donot agree with this are …… well i wont say. (Yes I am Pakistani)

Oh hang on at least someone noticed me!:D

I think the article is wrong on many counts when it comes to the JF-17 and shows a lack of understanding of thinking within the PAF and the local tactical situation.

I think the recent report in AFM gives a far better look at the JF-17 purchase.

Just to pick apart few points:

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If the FC-1 was a top-tier fighter jet, then why in the world would Pakistan be consistently pushing for the acquisition of more F-16s from the United States?

Pakistan is looking for diversity in its procurement and the F16 is a fairly easy type to induct into their air force as they already operate it.

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Then why is Pakistan also trying to acquire China’s other new fighter, the J-10? Do they want a three-jet fleet?

Is that so strange? Look at how many fast jet types India operates.

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If the FC-1 was the super fighter that some Pakistani aviation fans would want you to believe, then why aren’t they clamoring for more FC-1s in place of those F-16s?

The head of there air force has clearly stated that they would like to buy at least another 100 JF-17 making it in a few years time the main aircraft in their inventory.

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Then there’s the issue of the FC-1’s true effectiveness in combat on the subcontinent. Pakistan wants about 150 of them. Unfortunately for them, India is buying and license building a similar number of a true 4.5 Generation fighter jet, the Su-30MKI. TVC, a PESA, and a robust long-range weapons fit for both A/A and A/G combat make the Su-30MKI a world-class fighter jet, and pretty much hands air superiority over the subcontinent to the Indian Air Force, easily.

This is an interesting point at face value so I think we need to look at the background to the JF-17 a bit closer. Firstly much has been made about the joint American/Chinese Super 7 project but I think it’s fair to say at this point that the FC1/JF-17 is quite a different beast to that aircraft. Looking at the situation for the PAF prior to 2001 it is important to note that they were clearly desperate for a fighter with a BVR capability and there was no chance of getting more F16 with AMRAAM (or Sparrow for that matter) and there was virtually no chance of buying a suitable type from France or Russia. The only country who could supply to them at that point was China, now prior to 2001 the J-10 was very much an unknown and certainly not something that Pakistan could consider at the time. The only aircraft with a possible BVR capability on the table was the JF-17 and I think the PAF had little choice to move forward with it. On the other hand they would have a great deal of input in its development and it would benefit local industry. Since then we have had September 11th the war on terror and America has come back to the table with the F16, China is now considering offering the J-10 (an aircraft which is clearly an intermediate type for China). The PAF is taking a very sensible path by looking at all three types and they are putting far more emphasis on the multi role ability of each type. Its becoming very clear now that the BVR capability has moved down the priority list for the JF-17 now they can get AMRAAM equipped F16 quickly and I don’t think Pakistan intends the aircraft to go toe to toe with Indian combat jets but rather use it in the swing role replacing the Mirage3/5 and older F7.

Now for the bombshell and I know it won’t be popular with some but the PAF has no chance in a conventional offensive air war with India over Indian territory as described in the article. The Indian air force is just too large and well equipped and the country of India is just too big for the PAF to operate over considering the layered integrated air defense network (OK it is patchy but nevertheless its a huge country making it a daunting task to penetrate) they would face. The thing is the high command of the PAF is not stupid and I think they clearly know this reality! On the other hand they can build an air force and air defense network which can give credible deterrence over their own territory. In a conventional war the combination of new swing role jets over their own fairly small airspace with AEW and ground radars can cause enough damage to the Indian air force to maybe put them off having a go.

Is the JF-17 a super fighter?…no! But it does fill a gap in Pakistan’s needs, I don’t think the PAF see it as such and they don’t intend it to go and face up against the MKI in close combat. But it has good export potential, fairly modern and can be purchased in large numbers.

In a decade Pakistan will have an easy to manage air force with three fast jet types, a good trainer in the K8 and at least two AEW types.

I won’t touch the issue of politics within Pakistan but I do regard the PAF as a highly professional force with a good understanding of their own capabilities and how best to utilize limited resources.

That is the scenario I had in mind when I made my first reply to Jonesy.

Has anybody here read Patrick Robinson’s ‘Kilo Class’ which had input from a certain retired RN submariner?

I read that book a few years ago, quite interesting but the concept of America just going and destroying China’s new Kilo class submarines before delivery outrageous!

It will be interesting to see if Sri Lanka can maintain them on QRA for a sustained amount of time. I presume that they will be using GCI but will the Sri Lankan pilots have the necessary skills to intercept a small, slow, low flying aircraft at night?

Also are we talking about new airframes or second hand?

I don’t think there is any technical reason why a Rafale squadron couldn’t operate off an American carrier but I can see it being a bit politcally sensative. On the other hand I can see the SEM operating off the Sao Paulo

Are you saying the Royal Family doesn’t support the CVF Program? Man that is a shocker with the long history with the Royal Navy! WOW

If, true have they stated why???

Errrr?

Wrong Royal….I was talking about Segolene Royal the person who lost the French presidential election today. She stated that she would cancel PA2 for the French navy.

CVF and PA2 will be sister ships in many respects and it is becoming quite clear now that France will get some of the build work for the UK carriers. There just isn’t the money now in the UK equipment budget to not work with the French.

Oh well now the elections are out of the way (the latest excuse) will the government put its money where its mouth is and announce the order of the carriers.

Or will we have another excuse or unexplained delay?

(Of course also depending on Sarkozy winning today as Royale doesn’t support the carrier program and the UK can’t afford the CVF if the French don’t order PA2.)