To risk paraphrasing Swerve and going over myself again Scooter but the days of the UK buying jets for type specific roles are over, that is partially due to cost but also for the efficiencies that will entail.

So it isn’t the case that A & C are not being purchased because the UK can’t afford to replace the Tornado. Stated plan is to buy one F-35 variant only, that has been the plan for at least the last decade. The fact is the single F-35 variant and Typhoon are replacing Tornado GR4/F3, Jaguar and Harrier in nearly all roles the exception being carrier operations which will be performed by the latter. So there will be a dedicated manned replacement for the Tornado GR4 but that type will also perform other roles, it might not be as optimal as a dedicated design or other variants of the same aircraft but it will be good enough. Actually operating from a long runway along with stores under the wing the F-35B performance is favourable when it comes to payload and range in comparison to the GR4.

There is no serious thinking being put into buying another variant in the UK outside far flung conceptual planning around early tranche Typhoon retirement and an as of yet un-built UCAV induction. The RAF would probably prefer a UCAV and more F-35B over operating a different variant and the FAA will support that if it means more airframes to be rotated onto the carriers. Work the first 48 F-35B and retire them by 2030-35 in favour of new airframes from the line.

Personally I am in favour of buying F-35B in small blocks over its entire production life rather then one big buy early in its life. That has a number of advantages, less airframes in storage, less fleets within fleets, no SLEP programs (retire and part out instead), reduced costs by spreading the buy into later blocks, British industry is kept working building new examples and ensuring that there is a compatible aircraft for the STOVL QE class for its entire life.

Where did I say you are an F-35 hater? Now you are being nonsensical! :apologetic: You posted something unrelated to F-35 service entry which was by in large entirely negative about the type. I stated that if you wanted to hate on it go somewhere else, I didn’t say you were a hater. Now I realise that is a fine line but I see nothing that needs retracting as I didn’t actually call you out as such.

These are my direct comments:

Finally in my very first post I said this a thread to discuss F-35B service entry not a hate thread. If you want to do that go to the general F-35 thread and hate away but politely can this thread not be dragged down by the same cr@p!

I also politely pointed out this was not an F-35 hate thread, this was a thread to discuss UK service entry of the type only.

So you love the F-35B now…great, I didn’t get that impression from your post so asked you to take it somewhere else. Again this is a thread to discuss service entry only not yet another where we all run around in circles talking about program problems or how we don’t think it is a good type. Your post had little to do about service entry and was mainly about how you don’t think it is a good replacement for Tornado, fine I have no problem with you bringing that up just not in a thread which is purely about the types service entry.

Where in ANY of those comments did I say you were an F-35 hater? I pointed out that discussion about it vs Tornado is not relevant to the subject matter of the thread but I also said you had every right to talk about it elsewhere and hate on the type if you wanted. Now clearly I confused you slightly and I apologise if I gave the impression that I was parking you in the “F-35 hater” camp. But that doesn’t mean I retract anything else, I disagreed, pointed out where I disagreed and asked for this thread not to be dragged into yet another circular F-35 hate thread. This is my 4266 post so you will forgive me if I can’t remember the detail of every post in every thread I have participated. I do know that I have no cause to argue with you before and generally have appreciated your contribution mrmalaya. That doesn’t mean I going to spare you from disagreement and I see no reason for apologies aside from maybe clarifying that I don’t pigeon-hole you into the F-35 hate camp. Nearly your entire post had nothing to do with F-35 service entry and was mainly about how it was not as good as the Tornado, now you have clarified I understand that was more down to difference between B & C. Now I understand your thinking which I have no problem with.

I do agree the level of debate in Key pub forum has been on the slip lately and frankly I think the mods should clamp down way harder on some of the more stupid stuff especially the silly nationalist nonsense coming from posters like SlowMan and JSR but I like a heated debate, probably down the petulant nature I inherited from my mother :highly_amused: I also think anybody who sets up a “Type Y vs Type X” thread should be instantly banned! Angry Bender sums me up pretty well :dev2: (now that did sound wrong)

Sorry mrmalaya this is where I am going to totally disagree!

My view of Tornado replacement is that the F35 in any current form doesn’t cut the mustard. It isn’t designed to do the same thing,

And why should it be seen purely as a Tornado replacement? It isn’t. The days of the RAF buying a dedicated platform to do a particular task are over and frankly I celebrate that move. Typhoon and F-35B will both perform penetration strike, CAS, air interception, air superiority and probably a number of other unlisted tasks. F-35B will also have the role of operating from the QE class again performing a multitude of tasks. So it is designed to do the same thing plus all the other tasks that we expect of an RAF/FAA fast jet, they will be a jack of all trades. Maybe not as good as a dedicated type in a particular task but good enough and more flexible in what we can use them for.

Stormshadow without compromising itself

But it will carry Stormshadow as will Typhoon, I presume you mean by compromising its stealth capability? So what?! F-35B and Typhoon will operate them stand off, that is a “Good enough” capability alongside other force enablers like our new Voyager tankers. Again it is not going to be a narrowly defined single role type.

by definition would sound the death knell for the UK’s most cutting edge aerospace research.

How? A bit glass half empty in my opinion. The UK is involved in the cutting edge R&D required to develop F-35 as well as Typhoon and many other programs including Taranis. I hardly see F-35 as the death knell for British aerospace research when I see so much going on now. OK FOAS would of been lovely but yet again it would of been a narrowly defined type that we would of struggled to export to anybody but the Saudis. As long as the Americans don’t go mad and cancel it there is potentially 3000+ airframes for the UK to build significant content for. I see that as a bigger return on UK R&D investment personally.

The RAF puts great store in its long range strike abilities and increasingly is using very high tech weaponry to carve out a niche for itself in the post 9/11 world.

Now here I partially agree, the RAF does put great store in high technology and procurement has been in that direction. It also puts store in its long range strike capability but post 11/9 RAF jets and drones for that matter have needed to be jack of all trades. Typhoon, F-35B and whatever drone we buy will reflect that. I also hope in today’s more purple days that the RAF acknowledge that some of the UK penetration strike capability resides with Tomahawk.

I don’t think the UK will sell the farm and buy another F35 variant.

I agree, personally I see no advantage buying the A model when there are more synergies buying the multi role, jack of all trades good enough B model that can also operate from the carriers as well.

Finally in my very first post I said this a thread to discuss F-35B service entry not a hate thread. If you want to do that go to the general F-35 thread and hate away but politely can this thread not be dragged down by the same cr@p!