Well we could do that but in I think I am right. This has been well debated over the years, if your opinion differs fine. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: There are a few condescending role-eyes just so you get the idea.
Going back to the key point there just wasn’t the pressure to start ground attack integration for Typhoon and I am fed up of people using it as a stick to beat Typhoon.
Jaguar is gone, F1 is going, Etendard is going and Mirage 2000 will go. The very definition of a fleet draw down. There is some shifting around whilst they get to the eventual two type fast jet fleet based around Rafale and Alphajet. I am not saying the Alphajet is an upgrade, I am saying it is a fast jet. Just because it is a trainer doesn’t stop it being a fast jet.
Most certainly the RAF has been trying to hang munitions off their Typhoon, partially due to the Tornado draw down being accelerated and the Harrier and Jaguar being retired early. Nevertheless the plan at conception was for the Typhoon to operate in parallel in UK service with the Tornado, Jaguar, Harrier and Phantom. The Phantom was actually retired ten to fifteen years ahead of its intended OSD. Typhoon didn’t need as quick ground attack munitions integration as all those other types were intended to stay in service alongside it for many years. Unfortunately defence cuts have forced the UK’s hand in pushing forward with austere ground attack munitions integration.
France intended to complete it’s legacy type draw down before the UK which intended to operate Typhoon in parallel for a number of years. “Options for change” (Loads of cuts), “Front Line First” (basically a fancy name for cuts), “Delivering Security in a Changing World” (even more cuts) and “SDSR 2010” (cuts…you get the idea) put paid to those carefully laid fleet plans in the RAF. Forcing an accelerated ground attack integration program. France on the other hand intended to move to Rafale and slewed its development program to allow it to take on those roles as soon as possible.
Well reading through that Snafu it agrees with my point as far as I can see it.
France is doing a radical fleet upgrade to two fast jet types, in the interim they are moving aircraft around but the need to make Rafale multi-role was far more pressing.
The last Mirage 2000D was delivered in 2001.
There are around 60 D’s out of 80 or so built in service at Nancy, plus Mirage 2000N at Istres are now not exclusively roled for nuclear strike.The Marine are still operating SEM’s alongside the Rafale today and will do for a couple more years.
How many Tornados does the RAF have left in service, around a 100?
That doesn’t change the fact that France was drawing down its ground attack fast jet types faster the the Typhoon partner nations.
Like all those R1 rifles that were expensively destroyed to wipe that memory away.
Just to pick up this point, I don’t think so. The R1 as in the licence made FN-FAL! An obsolete 7.62×51 battle rifle adopted in the 1960’s! South Africa more then likely retired it for the same reason everybody else did, worn out receivers and barrels not to mention the general move to 5.56 by Western leaning nations. Anyhow you theory that it was done to wash away the memory of the Apartheid military is rather sunk by the fact that the current Galil based service rifle the R4/R5 was adopted during that era. Anyhow what about all the other equipment they have retained like the G5. Now come on that is a rather silly theory that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny!
Apparently by the time the British army started to retire their own SLR they were in a rather dangerous state to say the least. Just like aircraft, guns (especially the rather overstressed FN FAL) don’t have an infinite life! Thousands of rounds and the care of the average squaddy tends to sap the life of a service rifle!
If somebody would be interested in a cheap fighter, there is one way for me to do it and that is to use the engine of a biz-jet. Take a BR-710, put it in a fat fuselage like a shrinked X-32 and you could get a decent subsonic plane. (might go supersonice in a dive)
Problem is whilst you can make a cheaper subsonic fighter jet it will struggle to perform particular key tasks required of it. The Czech found that out with the L159, OK it has a perfectly decent radar (albeit a small dish), cannon and a SRAAM but if it has to do the prosaic thing of intercepting a transiting Boeing 737-800 with a failed transponder at FL410 there is a good chance that you won’t actually get to it by the time it has excited your airspace or run into something! 😉 That is why there is still a market for jets like the CAC J-7, being able to go Supersonic is difference between getting to visual range on an intercept and missing all together. The Austrians eventually had to go for the Draken as other countries especially the US were taking the **** using their airspace as a short-cut. If the Austrians had purchased the jet you suggest there is a good chance that they wouldn’t of been able to get up and take photos of the culprits!
one more question for today..
I always hear Rafale has the advantage over the typhoon in air to ground weapons and range
will the typhoon eventually be able to match the Rafale in air to ground with the right updates and weapons?
can the Typhoon fully replace the Tornado?
In the time frame France was doing a radical fleet upgrade moving from several fast jet types to just two AlfaJet and Rafale. That means they needed the ground attack capabilities fast quick. The Typhoon partner nations on the other hand always planned to operate their Typhoon in parallel with the Tornado or Hornet in Spain’s case. There just isn’t the pressing case for the capability when they already have perfectly good strike bombers in service for several more years. It has hurt the Typhoon partnership in a few sales campaigns but measured against the large production back log it is not as big a deal.
Nor Spain, unless it buys some F-35B to replace its Harriers & fly off its STOVL-capable LHD.
My guess is Spain will be the last operator of the AV-8B then adopt the F-35B, logically they will dispatch some pilots on exchange with the RAF/FAA, Italian Navy and USMC. Considering their economic situation flogging the AV-8B as long as possible until F-35B production costs creep down is logical.
You mean like the Australians breaking a transformer on Largs Bay/HMAS Choules by running an RAN warship test cycle on it, despite being warned that it wasn’t built for it? Or so goes the scuttlebutt from RAN types on the net.
The RAN then complained that it’d been sold a pup. Doh!
Or when the Royal Canadian Navy hooked a modern generator with a high power DC line to the electrical systems of HMCS Victoria causing catastrophic damage. They had to buy replacement electronics including second hand generators from the UK. Of course not really helped by the fact that they were doing much of the work without any reference to the people who actually built the submarine.
Four more new LPD would allow them to retire INS Jalashwa.
Well plenty of options out there, certainly a variant of the Enforcer design would have a good chance but I can also see other designs being pushed.
mack8 politely NO TORNADO was lost during GW1 due to combat with a Mig-29, all seven (six RAF one AMI) were last to AAA, SAM or controlled flight into terrain. Please can you and anybody else stop peddling this myth, all the shoot downs were investigated after the war and there is no evidence of enemy fighter involvement. Continuing to push this uncredited myth that is unsupported by evidence is frankly disrespectful to the Tornado crew we lost in that war. 😡
They wanted the highest performing AA platform and they have unlimited amounts of money…
Or it came down to bribes (as always), a game where the french usually never lose. Based on my experiences of dealing with arabic business men this would not be a surprise.
Well if they get Typhoon they get the highest performing AA platform 😉
As for bribes…not in this current climate, this deal if it happens should be squeaky clean.
As already said France probably blew this one a number of years ago, I wouldn’t be surprised that it was for similar reasons as to losing Morocco to the F-16.
Third UK F-35B ZM137 makes first flight.
Meanwhile in Scotstoun:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/qeclasscarriers/8599107459/in/photostream
I bet the MOD doesn’t even know that! Try asking Unit 61398 of the China Army they probably have a better handle on UK defence inventory 😉