FedaykinI would say it has become a habit for Israel to protest any kind of defence purchase by an Arab nation from a Western manufacturer over the years.
They freaked when Saudi Arabia tried to get the F-15 for example.
Fedaykinhttp://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/news/story/2012/12/06/poli-f35-pmo-government-fighter-jets.html
Well a competitive contest then!
Saab will probably bid a variant if the Gripen sold to the Swiss. Boeing will probably bid Super Hornet (expect some very attractive costings to be thrown in). EADS a variant of Typhoon Tranche 3. Dassault a variant of the Indian Rafale specification.
If I was a betting man I would be putting 100 Canadian dollars on the Super Hornet and fifty each way on Typhoon and F-35.
FedaykinExactly, the USAF is not going to do anything outside the KPP or have T-X go the way of so many recent procurement contests with cancellations and litigation!
FedaykinSlowman
There is no simulation for high-altitude trans-sonic high-G dogfight on afterburner; the jet actually needs to fly like an F-16D to replace the F-16D now used to train new pilots on air combat.
Errr?! And where is the KPP in the T-X requirement for that? Again you are making up requirements to suit your thinking. The USAF needs to use the F-16D for conversion training because the T-38 is obsolete. The RAF/FAA, Canadian airforce, Australian airforce US Marine Corps and USN intend to convert pilots to F-35 using their more modern Hawk or Goshawk. The late model Hawk and T-45C have the performance and a glass cockpit adequate for the role.
So far you have made up KPP, alluded to companies that have shown little sign of actually bidding (SAAB) and paper aeroplanes (Boeing). It is getting boring, frankly it is like talking to a Korean version of JSR.
If the T-50 wins fine I won’t lose any sleep over it but I am not being dragged into another tit for tat debate with someone who doesn’t understand when to let a point ride!
FedaykinWhich doesn’t make it a close competitor to the F-16 laddy! Do keep up! KAI T-50 isn’t much of a threat to the F-16 on the export market but the Gripen is.
FedaykinSlowMan
T-50, Gripen Trainer, and presumably Boeing trainer are supersonic too.
So far SAAB has made no serious signs that it is going to bid a trainer variant. Without a strong US partner like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon or Northrop Grumman it wouldn’t have a chance. At most we have rumours of them mulling over the concept. Considering Northrop Grumman is partnered with BAE Systems and Lockheed Martin with KAI that leaves Boeing and Raytheon. Boeing want to develop a new type and Raytheon has made no signs of wanting to participate. So I wouldn’t place so much certainty on Gripen being bid, anyhow it would send Lockheed Martin and its backers on capital hill into hysterics as Gripen is too close in performance to the F-16. In effect the US would be directly funding a close competitor to the F-16 on the global market!
So far the Boeing trainer is a paper concept which we have little to no details about. I don’t think Boeing has so far said anything about making it Supersonic.
As Swerve said the reason the F-16D is being used to convert pilots prior to stepping into something like an F-22 or F-35 is the obsolete nature of the T-38. This is a USAF problem being solved by buying a new lift type.
FedaykinProbably for the Saudi’s, they can’t get the Rafael Litening pod that is already integrated on the Typhoon for obvious reasons, they have also had Damocles installed on their Tornado so I suppose there is a synergy in doing the same for their Typhoon.
Interestingly they have purchased Sniper for their F-15S. I have heard rumour that the Americans wouldn’t cooperate with getting Sniper integrated on Tornado so I suppose the same would count for Typhoon.
On a side note I wonder what happened to the UOR purchased Sniper pods for the RAF Harriers? Are they sitting in a warehouse somewhere or have we sold them back to the Americans?
FedaykinDJ.
Second your comment that joining NATO eliminates need for advanced AD… so why do ALL members of NATO such as Greece, Italy, Spain , Netherlands ,UK , Ireland etc etc ALL invest in advanced AD?? Why does Royal Dutch Army have needs for NASAMS ??. Its in NATO and surrounded by friends by your logic it has no need for advanced AD what so ever. I think most nations like idea of having an ability to control and yes defend their own airspace and not just from “armies”.. there are other threats like terrorist and criminals.
Ireland is a member of NATO? That will be news to Ireland! They are not a member of NATO, maintaining neutrality. As for AD systems they operate RBS-70, Bofors EL-70 40mm gun and .50 cal hmg so hardly a significant advanced capability.
FedaykinTo be honest Canadian defence procurement makes British defence procurement look joined up an logical in comparison.
The amount of Times Canada has sunk significant amount of time and money on programs that they then cancel or fail to order beggars belief! APARS radar and Merlin comes to mind in that respect! As far as I can make the only reason they ordered the CH-148 is to avoid the embarrassment of ordering the Merlin again! Then again looking at how the contest panned out it looks like they put every effort into writing a specification to rule Merlin out despite it being established service with the RN and Italian navies as a Sea King replacement and already being in service as Canada’s SAR bird! In respect of CH-148 I think the US and Sikorsky should be loaning MH-60R direct from USN stocks free of charge as an interim solution until they can get the Cyclone to work!
FedaykinWhat is most exciting about this RFP is HAL is not involved, India could really benefit from some competition within its Aerospace sector.
FedaykinRomantic but unrealistic idea, India wants new build not refurbished old aircraft and they are hardly going to accept rebuilt 146M.
As Swerve said BAE Systems already gets a revenue stream from maintaining, selling and leasing the remaining airworthy 146, RJ and Jetstream.
It was a dire mistake to leave the civilian airliner business but trying to resurrect the 146 would only compound that.
FedaykinNo point, that would cost money which the MOD doesn’t have to spare.
A Ski Jump has been built at Patuxent River Naval Air Station to allow testing of the F-35B off it for the British and Italian navies. At sea deck trials are being performed off USN LPH. That is more then adequate to prove the system until HMS QE becomes available.
Pulling Illustrious off its current LPH tasking to support the F-35B program is a waste of money and resources when we can use facilities in the US.
FedaykinDon’t get me wrong I think the Upholders had huge potential and it was a sad day when they were offered up for defence cuts. I do feel there were certain mistakes made in their design in particular not just fitting German or French diesel engines (interesting to note that the back up diesels in the Astute class are from MAN). To be honest with the end of the Cold war their main patrol tasking had ended but there might of been other things they were useful for. A Falklands based South Atlantic patrol tasking would of been interesting and they certainly would of been handy guarding the bombers as they transit out of Faslane when Nimrod was canned. Actually their old tasking has become more valid again now the Russians are getting a bit more frisky!
Nevertheless done is done, I think you do raise an interesting question about what Canadian plans were before taking on the Upholder’s, I wonder if it was not the Oberon’s fault again. An excellent sub that was still effective but getting expensive to maintain. I wouldn’t be surprised if the politicians are the main criminals in this. By not wanting to fund a proper replacement cycle when the Oberon’s were doing such a good job still, I remember the Turbot wars of the mid 90’s when the Canadians released footage of the Oberon’s tracking Spanish fisherman. To the Canadian politicians not a problem to the Canadian navy they are stuck trying to maintain a submarine with obsolete and hard to source parts. I wonder how much parts were brought from the UK cannibalised from retiring Oberon’s. So navy want new submarine politicians don’t want to pay for it then all of a sudden there are these nearly SSK on a plate. If the Upholders had been hot swapped when they were retired from the RN then many problems could of been avoided certainly as they wouldn’t of suffered the lay up period or be stripped for parts to support the SSN. That the Canadians decided to retain their old MK48 Mod 4 was a worrying development, talk about cheapskates! To get them in Upholder involved gutting equipment out of their Oberon and chucking out more modern integrated kit. They would of been better off with leasing Marconi MK 24 Tigerfish Mod 2 from RN stocks as an interim solution, not a stellar performing weapon but in Mod 2 form it was adequate and integrated on the Upholder class. They could of then made a later decision about going for Spearfish or adopting MK48 ADCAP Mod 7 when money was spare. Instead they added time and lots of cost ripping decent kit out to replace it with old kit that needed integrating…
As for now considering the money is sunk they might as well get them into service but look to joining someone else’s SSK program in the future. Of course there is a curious secondary issue with the Upholder/Victoria class now, it is a twenty+ year old submarine so obsolescence problems will be coming up again.
FedaykinFedaykin,
I think you are being a bit hard on the Upholder Class, the SSN like hull form works well and early problems with all new weapon systems take time to sort out. The Canadians have a good boat there for next to nothing (okay we got to use the ranges at Goose Bay for five years in exchange).
Having their own subs off each coast stops the US Navy from driving their SSNs through Canadian waters without telling them too. This fact went down well with some Canadian politicians.
The reactivation process was a bit of a screw-up but that wasn’t the boats design or build quality’s fault. Fitting old kit from their Oberons into the new Upholders always seemed a bit of a backward step to me.If we had got the seven Upholder hulls planned the UK might just have stayed in the Diesel Submarine construction business. There is a world market out there for good subs – once again the UK has abandoned a good idea and years of construction experience. A fleet of seven Upholders perhaps updated with AIP units would have been a good accompaniment to the seven Astute class boats.
I thought the Navy offered the Upholder Class up as the only option they could offer in the “Front Line First” Defence Review (i.e. cuts) of 1992. They believed that as they were so new into service that the Government would realise the folly of scrapping them and would look to the Army and RAF for further cuts. The government of course realised that by scrapping an entire type of vessel would realise even greater than anticipated savings as the entire support and training structure for diesel submarines could also be cut.
But they haven’t got submarines on both coasts to block the USN from free access, the Victoria’s are either laid up or going through defect rectification at great cost. So it isn’t really next to nothing, they are almost at the point where it would of cost the same to buy new from an established SSK builder. We also can’t ignore the PR damage with the Canadian government and general public. When we tried to push the what is fairly low risk design the Type 26 to them they told us in no uncertain terms what they thought of British ship building and the chances of us selling them anything new. Offering up the Upholders in 1992 killed SSK construction in the UK as no builder was prepared to sustain a program without domestic orders. As I said if the Oberon’s hadn’t been held in service so long and replaced in the late 70’s to early 80’s I wonder if events would of panned out differently.
FedaykinIt would be nice if the A330MRTT gets the contract with Brazil but I wonder if the IAI 767 tanker conversion has a better chance due to the attractive price. It already has a regional success for Columbia and there are plenty of used 767 out there to buy.
Sign In
