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MiG-23MLD

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  • in reply to: F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag #2495092
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    well, when our next pilots graduate, RAAF tactical command should send them to the likes of star49 and Mig23MLD and george J. considering there expert information from working at the top ranks of various airforces, how can we consider anyone else for our tactical briefings? get a grip! how many of you serve in an air force? I’ve been to briefings as an ADGie and seen men with 15-20 years knowledge stuff up small details in a briefing- are you 100% percent correct with what you say all the time? Mig23MLD-you wrote a sentence about a war between romania and paraguay- i find that worse than saying a russian originating fighter has an engine from a russian company- its just generalisation, like a indian saying all american fighters are powered by pratt & whitney. what matters is what was refferred to in the video by him- thats what we are discussing – not the Su-35BN which will likely never see production in favour of PAK-FA. :rolleyes:

    I am not an expert but i can use logic.

    if they max published sustained turn rates for the F-15 and Su-27 are 16 deg/s and 21 deg/s respectively and the MiG-29 has a max sustained turn rate of 23deg/s you can calculate more or less several aspects that were said by the pilot.

    I have even flown an F-15 in a playstation video game and i have shot down Su-27 making cobras when they are far from my aircraft basicly what the pilot says is what happens in the video game, there is nothing amazing or extraordinary of what he says, but definitively the Su-30MKI is a better dogfighter in terms of agility.

    better trained pilots won`t do the same mistakes and by the way Mayor Kharavasov showed in a SU-27UB that the Cobra works against an F-15 in the 1990s. read it http://www.soldiering.ru/avia/file/airfight.php
    http://www.aviapanorama.narod.ru/journal/2004_5/f-15.htm
    in 1993 in Langley a pair of Su-27s shot down all the time the F-15s, not even using afterburner.

    Obviously the Pilot of red flag did not remind us about that fact.

    http://www.soldiering.ru/avia/file/f15_su27.jpg

    One of the first opportunities to make an unbiased
    comparison of the Su-27 and F-15 in action occurred in August 1992 when
    two Su-27UB combat trainers flown by pilots Col. A. Kharchevsky and Maj.
    Ye. Karabasov of the Russian Air Force Lipetsk-based Combat Employment
    and Retraining Centre paid a visit to Langley AFB (Va.) ・the home base
    of the 1st tactical fighter wing of the US Air Force.

    During the visit the first joint manoeuvring・
    of Su-27UBs and F-15Ds in the flight arena took place. At the time, Ye.
    Karabasov flew the aircraft with the rear seat being occupied by an American
    pilot, with two Americans flying the opposing Eagle.

    Speaking afterwards with a local newspaper reporter
    about which aircraft was better, the American pilots, hiding a certain
    embarrassment, noted that both fighters were good and had more or less
    similar performances. But when speaking with their Russian opposite numbers
    and technical experts, they acknowledged the unsurpassed superiority of
    the Su-27. The Eagle failed to get on the Flanker’s tail while Maj. Karabasov
    vigorous manoeuvring allowed him to keep the F-15 in his sights nearly
    all the time. The mock combat ended after several unsuccessful attempts
    by the F-15 pilot to change the situation for the better.

    http://patriotnews.com/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/anyboard9/fadedglory/&cmd=get&cG=1323739303&zu=3132373930&v=2&gV=0&p=

    in reply to: F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag #2495109
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    I didn’t know you were a loose-lipped Lockheed Martin engineer or F-22 pilot. You’re not? Then what do you know? :rolleyes:

    Please man, the F-22 won`t go beyond 28deg/s sustained, already the Eurofighter can get 24 deg/s and the MiG-29C 23deg/s.

    It is logic with all the thrust to weight ratio it has and the thrust vectoring nozzles the F-22 will achieve a max sustained turn rate of 28 deg/s of course in your mind it can get more perhaps up to 50 deg/s, but the pilot is talking about max sustained turn rates and i know he is talking about them because he is giving the max sustained turn rates for the Su-30MKI and F-15.

    Now the Su-35BM has an increased thrust to weight ratio and a better thrust vectoring system it will be close to the Eurofighter and F-22 for sure since already the Su-30MKI is close to the Rafale and Eurofighter.

    in reply to: F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag #2495356
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    No, he said it could turn at 28 deg/sec. He didn’t say that was the max. 😉

    That is the max, since he gives the max for the F-15`s and even the Eurofighter won`t go beyond 24 Deg/s.
    The Su-35BM has to be very close to the F-22 and perhaps it matches it

    in reply to: F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag #2495360
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Still dont care. Funny you hit out at f-15/22 fanboys while you’re the one arguing for a SU-35BM that is years from (if ever) operational service.

    The Pilot was actually kind in his remarks on the sukhoi. He could have gone into more negative factors.

    Not many years like you say only 3 years and its is important to mention it because the Su-35BM will be market to Venezuela and now is being marketed as we speak in China in the Zhuhai air show 2008

    in reply to: F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag #2495374
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Who cares abt SU-35 in the context of this subject?

    No one is even flying that jet operationally.

    The aircraft is in the context of this discussion, for several reasons.

    Many opinions about russian aircraft by F-22 fanboys assert and the pilot is obviously a F-15 fan boy, that the cobra and having a better turn rate is of no use in combat, he is giving some assertions that are not true for the newer Su-35BM

    For example he claims the Su-30MKI is a slow moving target turning or using thrust vectoring, but in a turn the slow target is the F-15.

    If you are chasing an F-15 and if he turns if you fly a Su-30MKI, the you will control the situation all the time the F-15 with his 16 deg/s wont shake you off of his tail.

    Now if you are ahead of the F-15 and the F-15 is at a distance that when you start turning let us say at 22 deg/s, the F-15 has two options. one is start turning, but the F-15 won`t win against the Su-30MKI, if the distance is far apart enough to start a climb then the F-15 can climb and later dive, since the F-15 is not turning the F-15 is not loosing speed niether altitude in the same rate, he claims he killed (or they killed) the Su-30MKI in that way.

    this is similar as when the Zero dogfought the hellcat in WWII.

    Now in the Su-35BM, having less drag than the Su-30MKI it won`t loose as much speed and altitude as the Su-30MKI so it can recover faster speed and altitude without loosing as much altitude and speed.

    To beat the F-15 you need to force it to out run you and over pass you so the F-15 won`t be able to keeps its sight on you or you have to force it into a turn where the F-15 won`t win.

    The Mistake done by the Su-30MKI and perhaps some F-22 pilots is get slow and with too much inertia, since inertia makes you stable you can not change your flight path and direction easily you become an easy pray.

    however this will apply too to the F-15.

    So what you have here is not an inferior fighter but a pilot who as a Zero pilot in 1943 was over confident in agility forgeting speed also is another componet of survival and for that reason he was shot down.

    But the Su-35BM won`t lose so much speed and altitude as the Su-30MKI thanks to newer engines and the deletion of the secont seat and canards

    in reply to: F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag #2495401
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Having read the comments here, I was preparing for the worst, but apart from a slip of the tongue here and there (Tumansky engines, AESA on the F-15K) he did a pretty good job IMHO. Certainly very interesting, although the bottomline should really not come as any great surprise to anyone with their head on straight, some of the details were quite juicy 🙂 Unless taken out of context, he definitely was a lot more balanced in his analysis than some people in here :rolleyes:

    I don’t think he made it up or was dishonest in any way, but I do think you need to take his comments in context. Said context is that any engine trouble so far away from Russia or India would have represented a crippling logistics problem for the Indian detachment, so they were extremely careful about it – rather safe than sorry, so to speak.

    About Link-16, that was only such a huge advantage because the Indians were in the minority, with an incompatible system of Russian origin. So their own network was fed from far fewer sources of information and thus unable to provide the same level of SA. A small Western detachment in a large Russian or Indian exercise would likely experience similar difficulties. That said, the Russian datalink isn’t quite as powerful as Link-16, although it also entered widespread service earlier.

    EDIT: Fedaykin, I didn’t mean to single you out in terms of taking him out of context or being unbalanced in your conclusions. I was just adding a few points to what you said, the comments in my first paragraph were not directed at you. Quite the contrary infact, just to let you know 😉

    To be a pilot the guy is quit ignorant about what is he flying against specially if he lectures people.

    The Su-30MKI has several aspect he mentions that the Russians were aware of The Su-35BM has corrected those facts, the Su-30MKI is overweight, has draggy canards, has less thrust available, inferior acceleration and a more limited thrust vectoring system, it is possible what he says is very true an unexperienced Su-30MKI pilot turning at the wrong moment will be shot down even by an F-15, but he exagerates when he claims his F-15 is better than an older MiG-21 and better than a newer Su-30MKI, but what can we say? he is an F-15 pilot and wants to make look good his F-15, his account must be true but the conclusions have to be taken with a grain of salt, the Cobra is useful if done properly and the Su-30MKI is far far better aerodynamically than the F-15, if the Indians pilots learn to do it properly won`t be surprised by the F-15 and the newer Su-35MB will eliminate even more those limitations seen in the Su-30MKI, he is aware of that and he says eventually the F-15 and F-16s will be uncapable of defeating the Su-30MKI

    in reply to: F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag #2495422
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    You clearly don’t know much about the Western fighter community do you!

    It is very different from the Topgun playboy image that many people have, Western fighter pilots are trained to be managers and analysts.

    In the west pilots are encouraged to talk to each other, manage missions with multiple platforms and resources then analyse the outcome.

    This process is fostered with exchange pilot tours and Qwalified Weapons Instructor Courses (thats the RAF term but it carries true accoss NATO).

    Your right that he is not going to know system details and he even joked about using Janes for research but he would be qualified to analyse what happened and draw conclusions about the MKI and BISON.

    That is just the typical western assumption and feeling of superiority.
    The guy is basicly bragging, the Su-30MKI can not break laws of physics, while he says a reality do not make this assumption that a slow turning fighter can beat a fast turning fighter by just climbing that is false, what he is just simply saying if your enemy is engaged in turning while you are not you can climb and do a vertical kill, that is true, but the Su-30MKI has a better turn rate, when both aircraft are turning, the F-15 won`t kill the Su-30MKI niether using a simple turn or using the Cobra, what the indian pilots did wrong is misjudge the distance and moment to turn.

    The Cobra manuevre is designed to make an enemy overpass you by over outaccelerating and out running the fighter doing the Cobra, however do it at the wrong moment you become an easy target, any one who has flown even a playstation knows that

    besides that the guy is just boasting claiming his F-15 with a 16 deg/s is a better dogfighter than a Su-30MKI capable of 22 deg/s

    in reply to: F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag #2495462
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    I think this guy has a fairly good idea about air to air combat and certainly had some very interesting information to give. I think he can be forgiven about the Mig 21 radar and engine mistakes. India buys into Israeli avionics in a big way so it would be easy to asume this was the case for the Bison and to the average American fighter pilot every Russian engine is a Turmunsky even if it isn’t. Anyway he was clearly impressed with the Bison and regarded it as a serious threat even to the F22 in certain situations.

    In the end this is a pilot (probably a graduate of the USAFWC) who was up actually performing these missions. Also watch the speech and read between the lines because he had some rather interesting and worrying conclusions in certain areas:

    1) New generation fighter’s from the Russian block are more then a match for Western fighters like the F15/16, if flown well.

    2) NATO Link16 is a decisive tactical advantage clearly shown by the outcome of the exercise.

    3) New generation Jamming equipment allow fighters to approach into visual range and it appears to be highly effective – THIS WAS PROBABLY THE MOST SERIOUS PART OF THE TALK AND IS CERTAINLY FOOD FOR THOUGHT!!! Notice he even stated the F22 can be jammed until visual and he clearly stated that it hasn’t the missile load to avoid a guns fight and even upgraded MIG21 in enough numbers are a serious threat in that situation.

    He concluded with the conclusion that MKI was better then the USAF own legacy fighters but that situation at the moment is mitigated by lack of experience on the Indian side.

    I’m amused by his comments about the French but to be fair to them we all play that game if there is the chance to gather electronic information.

    All in all a fascinating talk which will probably tweek the tail of the fanboys especially the High Emperor of fandom “Star49” but for those in the know it was very interesting.

    The pilot makes a mistake when he says the “Tumansky” when in reality is a Lyulka, the guy is not very acurate at all also the guy forgets a fact Russia already has a better thrust engine sistem in the MiG-29OVT and Su-35BM, so while up to a level the guy is saying a reality, i doubt the facts are as bad as he paints them how a fighter with a 16deg/s turn rate can beat a 22 deg/s capable turn rate fighter with better thrust to weight ratio?

    The pilots mentions the Indian pilots were unexperienced, so it was pilot error applying the Su-30, since basicly by having a better turn rate the Su-30MKI will dominate over the F-15 any time, so by doing a cobra at the wrong moment and wrong distance is possible the F-15 can kill the Su-30MKI, by that is pilot error not a lack of better technology

    in reply to: F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag #2495487
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    I somewhat disagree. I feel that you are taking his words out of context and overstating it.

    I think basically it says that the SU-30 is slightly better than the F-15 or F-16; but vastly inferior to the F-22,

    The video debunks the claims that flanker fanatics make that airshow maneuvers (cobra like) will win combat. The exercise shows that the reason that supposedly inferior aircraft were able to club the SU-30s like baby seals is because they were trying to use airshow maneuvers in combat that made them slow easy kills. (okay I was being a little melodramatic also on that last line);)

    The Video is at times difficult to understand but i understood something very clear, the F-15 has a instantaneous tunr rate of 21 deg/s and a sustained of 16 deg/s, the Su-30MKI a sustained of 22 deg/s, who is going to wing in a turn fight?

    The Video has not the Indians speaking niether the kill ratio

    Its is possible the heavy Su-30MKI can be shot down doing the cobra maneuvre since is heavier, but a Su-35BM will be totaly different.

    Besides the guy addmits they will eventually beat the F-15 and F-16, so it is not the aircraft but the wrong tactics the indians applied.

    Personally the guys are boasting a lot, personally the mistakes done by the indians do not reflect a reality how a F-22 is going to be invisible in a dogfight? it is not wonder woman`s aircraft and they say the F-22 it is better in dogfight, the video show a lot of bragging but personally i feel the pilot is inflating the claims just to say my F-15 is better than the F-22 and Su-30MKI

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2496147
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    You are a laugh. Read the headlines. Who do you think Brown and Sarkozy is asking for donations to shore up the IMF. They have gone asking to the Arabs and to China.

    Please don’t tell me you are a superior economist and businessman over the people at the WALL STREET JOURNAL.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122489333798168777.html

    A 21st-Century Bretton Woods
    Success at global finance summit hinges on China’s willingness to play role once taken by U.S.

    Excerpt.

    More fantasies Crobato let us see facts.
    :

    It confirms the delayed but strong reaction in China to the credit crisis. Its financial system has held up, largely insulated by government controls on the currency and the banking system, but it is being badly hit by the collapse in consumer confidence in its key export markets……………..

    ……On the other hand, the yuan is not falling against the rising dollar either, meaning it is gaining value fast against the euro and the pound for the first time in recent years, making its exports to those markets more expensive.

    source http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/3369964/Chinas-manufacturing-juggernaut-feels-pain-of-global-slowdown.html

    What you say has no sense since the US and Europe have also bring china to a simple fact, the US and Europe economies fall, China will too.

    This only can lead to rebellions in China and possible use of aircraft just to destroy separatists movements
    see more

    Treasury bills have allowed the US to finance its deficit and borrow the money to buy cheap Chinese goods; but China is sitting on the world’s largest dollar reserves, almost $2trn (5), more than two-thirds of its total annual production. If the present tsunami swept away the US financial system and undermined the dollar, China’s nest-egg would be destroyed, another reason why China won’t spoil the party, ignore the next round of Treasury securities or significantly reduce its dollar reserves. Any fall in the value of the dollar would bring about a rise in the value of the yuan and devalue China’s dollar reserves, as if China had spent decades stacking up toytown money. Nobody is going to do anything rash.

    http://mondediplo.com/2008/11/02financialrealities

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2496725
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    No one said that China is the dominant economic superpower now, what everyone says its the rising power. As for income per capita, that is still rising. If you have high capita per income, it also means your labor cost is high and you no longer have a fast growth pattern. The fact that China still has low capita per income, while already having the largest reserves in the world, and doing it with very favorable account balances and public debt positions, tells you what the Chinese might do if they attain, an income per capita like in Hong Kong for the whole country, though of course, the growth rate won’t be as fast then.

    But if a series of cities in China would attain the same income per capita as Hong Kong, which adjusted to PPP is over 44,000 dollars, that would already create massive shifts in the global economy. Hong Kong, even for a mere city, already has financial reserves exceeding 150 billion, which is more than most countries around the world. So imagine a string of cities attaining the supercity status of Hong Kong and Singapore (48,000 over income per capita). The greater Beijing and Shanghai region comes to mind, but there are also quite a number of areas that are fast rising supercities such as Guangzhou.

    Already the number of celphone and internet users in China exceeds that of any country in the world. Each user represents an income level where they can afford to use celphones, computers and internet connection, the sign of a rising middle class.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2153rank.html

    1
    World 1,018,057,389 2005
    2
    China 253,000,000 2008
    3
    European Union 247,000,000 2006
    4
    United States 223,000,000 2008
    5
    Japan 88,110,000 2007
    6
    India 80,000,000 2007
    7
    Brazil 50,000,000 2007
    8
    Germany 42,500,000 2007
    9
    United Kingdom 40,200,000 2007
    10
    Korea, South 35,590,000

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2151rank.html

    1
    World 2,168,433,600 2005
    2
    China 547,286,000 2007
    3
    European Union 466,000,000 2005
    4
    India 296,080,000 2008
    5
    United States 255,000,000 2007

    The only fantasy around here is you, especially when you’re in contradiction to people like Buffet, Souros, Bill Gates, etc,.

    Uhmmm….. so now you can not say this, your ultra wealthy state still pays low salaries to the main bulk of workers and there is middle class in China, very communist, yeah very communist, so in China a supposedly equal society there is a growing class differenciation interesting so it does not mean China is becoming a more unequal society, where unequallities are supporting the rise of a rulling class.

    You are dreaming, for China to becoming rich needs to be like Japan
    In Japan, the main regular minimun wage is between 170000 to 230000 yen or USD $1700 to 2300, then the amonut of Yen circullating in japan corresponds to the per capita USD $ japanese GDP, China still has a low GDP per capita so salaries are reflected in the Per capita GDP or in salaries of a few USD dollars, so most Chinese make salaries below USD $300 while prices still are much higher, so the amount of debt and currency circulation is still higher in China. by the way why you do not give the results by % of the total Chinese population?

    The amount of Dollars circulating world wide is too large to think China will really collapse the US economy, the IMF knows that the current arrangement needs to be fixed so the main Western economies continue enjoying a leading role economically and emerging nations can include a higher growth with higher penetration of western capital.

    To put it in few words, China has not real power to control the west economically since the main international gold reserves and reserve currencies are western, China has a stake in the world no doubt about it, but to wrestle the economic power to the west you then need the Yuan to becoming the main reserve currency for international trade , but at this moment the only currency wrestling the power to the US Dollar is the Euro.

    The only thing China, Russia and India can do is threat with their weapons and threat with starting a WWIII, or increase the price of oil and some commodities, but so far, the West still has a firm hold on the word`s economy

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2497317
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Current account balance is also another indicator of health. Basically shows who is gaining wealth and who is losing it.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html

    The worst place to be is to have the biggest negative.

    1
    China $ 371,800,000,000 2007 est.
    2
    Germany $ 254,500,000,000 2007 est.
    3
    Japan $ 210,500,000,000 2007 est.
    4
    Saudi Arabia $ 86,620,000,000 2007 est.
    5
    Russia $ 78,310,000,000 2007 est.
    6
    Switzerland $ 72,350,000,000 2007 est.
    7
    Norway $ 64,070,000,000 2007 est.
    8
    Kuwait $ 47,500,000,000 2007 est.
    9
    Netherlands $ 47,310,000,000 2007 est.
    10
    Singapore $ 46,390,000,000 2007 est.
    11
    Sweden $ 37,970,000,000 2007 est.
    12
    United Arab Emirates $ 34,530,000,000 2007 est.
    13
    Taiwan $ 32,880,000,000 2007 est.
    14
    Algeria $ 32,050,000,000 2007 est.
    15
    Iran $ 28,950,000,000 2007 est.
    16
    Malaysia $ 28,930,000,000 2007 est.
    17
    Hong Kong $ 28,040,000,000 2007 est.
    18
    Libya $ 26,380,000,000 2007 est.
    19
    Venezuela $ 20,000,000,000 2007 est.
    20
    Thailand $ 14,920,000,000 2007 est.
    21
    Angola $ 13,580,000,000 2007 est.
    22
    Canada $ 12,670,000,000 2007 est.
    23
    Austria $ 12,030,000,000 2007 est.
    24
    Finland $ 11,400,000,000 2007 est.
    25
    Indonesia $ 11,010,000,000 2007 est.
    26
    Qatar $ 10,410,000,000 2007 est.
    27
    Azerbaijan $ 9,019,000,000 2007 est.
    28
    Argentina $ 7,438,000,000 2007 est.
    29
    Chile $ 7,200,000,000 2007 est.
    30
    Brunei $ 7,101,000,000 2007 est.
    31
    Philippines $ 6,351,000,000 2007 est.
    32
    Iraq $ 6,025,000,000 2007 est.
    33
    Korea, South $ 5,954,000,000 2007 est.
    34
    Trinidad and Tobago $ 5,378,000,000 2007 est.
    35
    Israel $ 5,197,000,000 2007 est.
    36
    Luxembourg $ 4,921,000,000 2007 est.
    37
    Oman $ 4,866,000,000 2007 est.
    38
    Uzbekistan $ 4,615,000,000 2007 est.
    39
    Denmark $ 4,279,000,000 2007 est.
    40
    Belgium $ 3,282,000,000 2007 est.
    41
    Bahrain $ 2,907,000,000 2007 est.
    42
    Nigeria $ 2,514,000,000 2007 est.
    43
    Botswana $ 1,973,000,000 2007 est.
    44
    Bolivia $ 1,796,000,000 2007 est.
    45
    Brazil $ 1,712,000,000 2007 est.
    46
    Turkmenistan $ 1,705,000,000 2007 est.
    47
    Gabon $ 1,552,000,000 2007 est.
    48
    Peru $ 1,516,000,000 2007 est.
    49
    Burma $ 1,427,000,000 2007 est.
    50
    Timor-Leste $ 1,161,000,000 2007 est.
    51
    Ecuador $ 1,064,000,000 2007 est.
    52
    Syria $ 908,000,000 2007 est.
    53
    Namibia $ 805,200,000 2007 est.
    54
    Bangladesh $ 804,700,000 2007 est.
    55
    Egypt $ 500,900,000 2007 est.
    56
    Equatorial Guinea $ 415,000,000 2007 est.
    57
    Cuba $ 240,000,000 2007 est.
    58
    British Virgin Islands $ 134,300,000 1999
    59
    Papua New Guinea $ 125,800,000 2007 est.
    60
    Paraguay $ 119,000,000 2007 est.
    61
    Bhutan $ 116,000,000 2007 est.
    62
    Nepal $ 58,000,000 2007
    63
    Lesotho $ 49,000,000 2007 est.
    64
    Cook Islands $ 26,670,000 2005
    65
    Suriname $ 24,000,000 2007 est.
    66
    Palau $ 15,090,000 FY03/04
    67
    Comoros $ 8,000,000 2007 est.
    68
    Guinea-Bissau $ -6,000,000 2007 est.
    69
    Tuvalu $ -11,680,000 2003
    70
    Kiribati $ -21,000,000 2007 est.
    71
    Mongolia $ -23,000,000 2007 est.
    72
    Tonga $ -23,000,000 2007 est.
    73
    Samoa $ -24,000,000 2007 est.
    74
    Swaziland $ -24,000,000 2007 est.
    75
    Micronesia, Federated States of $ -34,300,000 FY05 est.
    76
    Anguilla $ -42,870,000 2003 est.
    77
    Belize $ -43,000,000 2007 est.
    78
    Sao Tome and Principe $ -55,000,000 2007 est.
    79
    Kosovo $ -58,300,000 2007
    80
    Vanuatu $ -60,000,000 2007 est.
    81
    Sierra Leone $ -63,000,000 2007 est.
    82
    Gambia, The $ -71,000,000 2007 est.
    83
    Dominica $ -72,000,000 2007 est.
    84
    Central African Republic $ -77,000,000 2007 est.
    85
    Burundi $ -101,000,000 2007 est.
    86
    Cape Verde $ -132,600,000 2007 est.
    87
    Grenada $ -138,000,000 2007 est.
    88
    Solomon Islands $ -143,000,000 2007 est.
    89
    Cote d’Ivoire $ -146,000,000 2007 est.
    90
    Rwanda $ -147,000,000 2007 est.
    91
    Saint Vincent and the Grenadines $ -149,000,000 2007 est.
    92
    Guyana $ -157,000,000 2007 est.
    93
    Togo $ -159,000,000 2007 est.
    94
    Saint Kitts and Nevis $ -163,000,000 2007 est.
    95
    Chad $ -171,000,000 2007 est.
    96
    Mauritania $ -184,000,000 2007 est.
    97
    Uruguay $ -185,600,000 2007 est.
    98
    Saint Lucia $ -199,000,000 2007 est.
    99
    Eritrea $ -205,000,000 2007 est.
    100
    Antigua and Barbuda $ -211,000,000 2007 est.
    101
    Djibouti $ -212,000,000 2007 est.
    102
    Liberia $ -224,000,000 2007
    103
    Zambia $ -228,000,000 2007 est.
    104
    Macedonia $ -249,000,000 2007 est.
    105
    Barbados $ -254,000,000 2007 est.
    106
    Kyrgyzstan $ -267,900,000 2007 est.
    107
    Seychelles $ -272,000,000 2007 est.
    108
    Laos $ -285,000,000 2007 est.
    109
    Malawi $ -318,000,000 2007 est.
    110
    Niger $ -321,000,000 2007 est.
    111
    Cameroon $ -325,000,000 2007 est.
    112
    Tajikistan $ -351,000,000 2007 est.
    113
    Yemen $ -362,000,000 2007 est.
    114
    Congo, Democratic Republic of the $ -402,000,000 2007 est.
    115
    Mauritius $ -408,300,000 2007 est.
    116
    Guinea $ -424,000,000 2007 est.
    117
    Malta $ -424,500,000 2007 est.
    118
    Benin $ -441,000,000 2007 est.
    119
    Mali $ -446,000,000 2007 est.
    120
    Haiti $ -467,000,000 2007 est.
    121
    Maldives $ -472,000,000 2007
    122
    Cambodia $ -506,300,000 2007 est.
    123
    Fiji $ -507,000,000 2007 est.
    124
    Armenia $ -571,400,000 2007 est.
    125
    Zimbabwe $ -649,000,000 2007 est.
    126
    Moldova $ -694,700,000 2007 est.
    127
    Burkina Faso $ -706,000,000 2007 est.
    128
    Uganda $ -744,700,000 2007 est.
    129
    Mozambique $ -795,100,000 2007 est.
    130
    Ethiopia $ -826,800,000 2007 est.
    131
    Madagascar $ -890,000,000 2007 est.
    132
    Tunisia $ -905,000,000 2007 est.
    133
    Nicaragua $ -1,001,000,000 2007 est.
    134
    Sri Lanka $ -1,019,000,000 2007 est.
    135
    El Salvador $ -1,119,000,000 2007 est.
    136
    Kenya $ -1,147,000,000 2007 est.
    137
    Albania $ -1,202,000,000 2007 est.
    138
    Honduras $ -1,225,000,000 2007 est.
    139
    Bahamas, The $ -1,442,000,000 2007 est.
    140
    Senegal $ -1,458,000,000 2007 est.
    141
    Congo, Republic of the $ -1,491,000,000 2007 est.
    142
    Costa Rica $ -1,499,000,000 2007 est.
    143
    Ghana $ -1,549,000,000 2007 est.
    144
    Panama $ -1,577,000,000 2007 est.
    145
    Guatemala $ -1,663,000,000 2007 est.
    146
    Jamaica $ -1,830,000,000 2007 est.
    147
    Morocco $ -1,834,000,000 2007 est.
    148
    Tanzania $ -1,856,000,000 2007 est.
    149
    Bosnia and Herzegovina $ -1,939,000,000 2007 est.
    150
    Georgia $ -2,044,000,000 2007 est.
    151
    Lebanon $ -2,046,000,000 2007 est.
    152
    Cyprus $ -2,144,000,000 2007 est.
    153
    Slovenia $ -2,181,000,000 2007 est.
    154
    Dominican Republic $ -2,231,000,000 2007 est.
    155
    Jordan $ -2,767,000,000 2007 est.
    156
    Belarus $ -2,876,000,000 2007 est.
    157
    Iceland $ -3,189,000,000 2007 est.
    158
    Sudan $ -3,447,000,000 2007 est.
    159
    Estonia $ -3,771,000,000 2007 est.
    160
    Slovakia $ -3,998,000,000 2007 est.
    161
    Czech Republic $ -4,534,000,000 2007 est.
    162
    Croatia $ -4,850,000,000 2007 est.
    163
    Lithuania $ -5,260,000,000 2007 est.
    164
    Mexico $ -5,525,000,000 2007 est.
    165
    Colombia $ -5,862,000,000 2007 est.
    166
    Ukraine $ -5,918,000,000 2007 est.
    167
    Latvia $ -6,231,000,000 2007 est.
    168
    Serbia $ -6,889,000,000 2007 est.
    169
    Vietnam $ -6,993,000,000 2007 est.
    170
    Kazakhstan $ -7,184,000,000 2007 est.
    171
    Hungary $ -8,018,000,000 2007 est.
    172
    Pakistan $ -8,255,000,000 2007 est.
    173
    Bulgaria $ -8,530,000,000 2007 est.
    174
    New Zealand $ -10,230,000,000 2007 est.
    175
    India $ -12,110,000,000 2007 est.
    176
    Ireland $ -14,120,000,000 2007 est.
    177
    Poland $ -15,910,000,000 2007 est.
    178
    South Africa $ -20,630,000,000 2007 est.
    179
    Portugal $ -21,750,000,000 2007 est.
    180
    Romania $ -23,020,000,000 2007 est.
    181
    France $ -31,250,000,000 2007 est.
    182
    Turkey $ -37,580,000,000 2007 est.
    183
    Greece $ -44,400,000,000 2007 est.
    184
    Italy $ -51,030,000,000 2007 est.
    185
    Australia $ -56,780,000,000 2007 est.
    186
    United Kingdom $ -119,200,000,000 2007 est.
    187
    Spain $ -145,300,000,000 2007 est.
    188
    United States $ -731,200,000,000 2007 est.

    More fantasies crobato tell me in each nation the salaries and the prices, tell me how much cost to have a two floor house like in a nice californian neighbourhood and a one room apartment in China.
    The average residency price dropped to 12,180 yuan (US$1,676) per square meter from 15,162 yuan. Prices in Dongcheng, Xicheng, Chongwen and Xuanwu, the districts with the highest house prices, slumped to 18,401 yuan per square meter from 23,467 yuan, the CCTV report said yesterday,
    http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/01/house-prices-plunge-in-beijing-yang-jian/
    All what you are saying are fantasies, the macroeconomics of China do not correspond to wealth in micro economics in few words China has almost a billion people making salaries that barely reach USD 300 Dollars, some are making even less.
    China is drafting a nationwide minimum wage law for state employees, the official China Daily reported today. The move comes as private enterprises have been giving urban workers increasingly higher wages to meet inflation. Three cities in China’s booming south have already introduced a minimum monthly wage. In Shenzhen and Zhuhai, it is $61, while in Guangzhou, it is $43.

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE2DD123CF930A1575AC0A965958260
    As a nation develops the economic growth slows down, China is not wealthy by per capita terms, you can not compare the conditions of most of Chinese farmers with those in Germany or Japan and you can not compare the conditions of factory workers in China even to those of England or Italy, in few words while china gets foreign currency it goes mostly to the pockets of few while the vast majority have salaries even worse than of those seen in Russia Brazil or Mexico.

    fantasies man, your fantasies do not consider real wealth but fantasies of exports done mostly by foreign companies in China and millions of workers paid salaries that barely give them to live in conditions close to shanty towns

    But of course you think that will make China a superpower.

    Remember this the West still is the most wealthy place to live with exception of Japan and to a lesser extend South Korea. (Australia and new Zealand are still Western societies)

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2497703
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    The Yuan is supported by the largest monetary accumulation in the entire world. As a totality, the EU’s entire EU’s reserves is only a fourth of China’s.

    And once again, GDP is deceptive and distortive. GDP for the most part, also counts government spending and military spending, with the exception of entitlements. Keynesian spending, just to create jobs does not necessarily mean infrastructure investment that can reap dividends along the run. There is an economic difference when you spend 200 million on an F-22 Raptor and 200 million on a factory. The first does not hire people, and the second does.

    Does it count savings rate for example? Chinese have the highest savings rate in the world, as much as 40%.

    Not when what is financing the consumption is credit and debt.

    Europe is the one that is doing the bailing out of their own banks. China has its own problems, but they’re not in the stage of bailing out banks like in Europe.

    No. China is the top producer and buyer of gold and silver. Anyone knows why gold and silver prices went high.

    Dreaming?

    Face the facts boy.

    http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_gold_reserves.asp

    To put it in perspective, for every $70 dollars of gold the US has, China has $1500.

    Please go ahead and total all the countries there that belong to the EU.

    No deal is going to be struck. US investments have not paid enough for the Chinese. They will be looking for some extensive Keynesian spending in their own economy, such as more infrastructure building, railway and school construction, plus some military related output.

    Once again, you have no idea about PPP, that is, China’s cost of living is far lower than any of them.

    Not when you’re backed by nearly 2 trillion in forex reserves, which are actual currency. Plus gold reserves like

    http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_gold_reserves.asp

    Really? Why has China not reached the stage of bailing out banks yet?

    Then why are different country leaders are asking for China to play a pivotal role in the bailouts? Why is Paulson talking to the Chinese just about every day?

    Irrelevant. Like I said, military spending isn’t income generating.

    Let us see who owns most of gold

    Who owns most gold?
    If we take national gold reserves, then most gold is owned by the USA followed by Germany and the IMF. If we include jewellery ownership, then India is the largest repository of gold in terms of total gold within the national boundaries. In terms of personal ownership, it is not known who owns the most, but is possibly a member of a ruling royal family in the East.

    http://www.gold.org/faq/start/75
    World official gold holding (June 2008)[6]
    Rank Country/Organization Gold
    (tonnes) Gold’s share of reserves
    (%)
    – World 29,822.6 –
    1 USA 8,133.5 78.2%
    2 Germany 3,417.4 66.3%
    3 International Monetary Fund 3,217.3 –
    4 France 2,562.3 59.4%
    5 Italy 2,451.8 68.1%
    6 Switzerland 1,100.7 39.8%
    7 Japan 765.2 2.1%
    – SPDR Gold Trust (a Gold exchange-traded fund) 745.2[7] –
    8 Netherlands 621.4 61.2%
    9 European Central Bank 563.6 24.8%
    10 People’s Republic of China 600.0 0.9%
    11 Republic of China (Taiwan) 423.3 4.0%
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_gold_reserves
    http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2008/1/15/world_gold_holdings4.png
    If you were right then by gold production Peru would be one of the riches countries in the world
    http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_08/images/thomes082508d.gif

    The GDP is the most important aspect to guess the size of an economy, but the per capita GDP is more important, countries with high GDP per capita are rich have strong currencies and most important can support currencies with high values and high salaries in the region of USD $24000 or more a year.

    China still is uncapable of controlling the West is only capable of threating the West with nukes and up to a level affect the economies of some countries but it is not a coincidence that China has very low salaries and high growth.

    Do not lie to your self, future wars are going to be for natural resoruces or zones of influences excused by some political reasons and driven some times by racial, cultural or religious hatre, but definitively most likely the US and China have complementary economies and the Chinese are also dependant on the US federal reserve to growth.

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2498190
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Actually if you talk to any banker, they will admit to the Yuan now being the most powerful, and certainly most undervalued currency in the world. That’s why the FDI is non stop, and more money is being poured faster into China from the outside.

    Actually, exports for China is less than 20% of GDP, while its nearly 40% for the US. The Chinese have a huge domestic economy of their own, a large part of it unmeasured because its black market.

    And China is both the largest gold producer and buyer, don’t you know that?

    China is dependent on keeping the US dollar low and stable.

    China is increasingly moving to the Euro which is a reason why the Euro has gone high in the last few years. Remember, the 2 trillion is foreign reserves worth 2 trillion. It does not say anything its completely made by the US dollar.

    Both China and Russia now has a new issue to ally about, that is the advocacy for a new global currency. The UK is spouting more socialist rhetoric and France sounding increasing Gaullist. We are heading into a new world order faster than predicted.

    What a fantasy, please do not dream things that are not real, a currency becomes strong only if it is supported by a high degree of circulation and goods produced, the Euro is supported by the largest economy in the world, but not only large in GDP but also in GDP per capita.

    what does it mean? well simple, there is high comsuption is Europe to allow higher prices and salaries then the currency is strong.

    Places where the economy is weak have cheap salaries, therefore do not have high circulation of the local currency, the US dollar has the second largest economy in the world to support it. with one of the highest per capita GDP in the world and is highly used as foreign reseve currency

    Gold is mostly in private hands and belongs mostly to European and American bankers in example the IMF.

    You are dreaming if you think the Chinese government has most of the world`s gold, China is basicly as dependant on the federal reserve as the US government to finance its own economy, what the chinese have done is simply extend the US economy into the Chiense economy.

    A deal struck by the US and Chinese to benefit only to the rich classes of both countries, Cheap labour for US companies and support to the dollar so China can export cheap goods and get more investment.

    The problem with china is not if the yuan is overvalued or not, it is simply China can not have salaries like in the US, Japan or Europe.

    The Yuan as the Real or the Peso are weak currencies simple because there is more debt than real money in circulation, if there is more real money and less debt China can afford to pay salaries like the Europeans or Japanese do of USD $20000 or 30000 dollars a year.

    So while you continue dreaming you can not figure out that the US bankers have not wasted time to force China to mutually assured economic destruction.
    What is happening now is the Chinese are relatively getting good profits of such system and teh US has gotten into a situation where the US finacial system is inpractical.

    definitively i do not see the chinese controlling the western world, it is not like you think, what is happening the western world is modifying the globalization rules and this means, that the west will stablish a new economic system.

    China only bargain power is offer cheap labour, threat with nukes and weaponry and try to get a slice of what the west is enjoying.

    China might try to threat with J-10s and ICBMs but the US has F-22, ICBMs, a larger nuke arsenal, the IMF, the G8 and NATO to bargain.

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2498650
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    That “fragile” economy has added its reserves since July from 1.8 trillion dollars to nearly 2 trillion by the end October. And still running a festering growth rate of at least 9%.

    Crobato having curency reserves in Euros or Dollars, does not mean China has a strong currency like the Euro or the US dollar.

    Who has more power who issues the bank notes or who uses them?
    Obviously the Chinese are addicted to the US dollar to finance the investment they need and get the foreign currency reserves to support their savings.

    Japan and Europe are different, they can afford to use their national currencies as foreign currency reserves.

    Unless you have the gold standard and a Per capita GDP of USD $40000 China won`t use the yuan as a reserve currency.

    If the Yuan is expensive the export profits disappear because China can not afford to pay salaries equivalent to those in Europe or Japan.

    China is highly dependant on the US dollar, China like Mexico are so dependant on the US economy as the US economy on the Chinese and Mexican economies.

    China can dump dollars its true but this will be a shot on the chinese foot too, a weak US economy means a weak Euro and Yen and at the end no profits and gowth for China this translate in civil unrest and possible independentist movements in China then China only will use its air force to quell rebellions.

    We are at the end of the dollar finacial system, but undoutedly it won`t mean the end of the US economy just a simple new arrangemenmt from a monopolar world to a multipolar world.

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