Originally posted by Arthur
So it’s not that the French buy American guns which won’t work for soldiers who won’t fight?

It does seem like an unbeatable combo though…

Well, it seems unbelievable that people who I thought were clever and thoughtful cannot understand or even conceive of the fact that because the French government was unwilling to send troops to the War, it doesn’t necessarily mean that French Forces did not want to want to fight. Do you not think that French SF for instances were itching to get accross and get involved?
Or is that yet another example of the tired old “joke” which is wearing thinner and thinner by the day?

:rolleyes:

French SF also use foreign weapons. The GIGN are often picture wiedling H&K MP5s to give but one obvious example. The assault rifle used througout the French Forces (including the Foreign Lezgion) is (or was until recentely in case there’s been a secret change of policy) the FAMAS, which has been upgraded in the last decade. I don’t think it’s terribly quick to clean/maintain but it seems reliable enough.

Kev and Hand,
Methinks it was the echo!

Phantom, I’m sure if you pop into a French Para regiment for a friendly chat, there will be a nice sergent who’ll be more than happy to demonstrate whether or not they have weapons and know how to use them. They might end up using your person as a target, but then there’s nothing like first-hand experience, is there?

😀

On a more serious note, and to the best of my knowledge, French Forces use the newer version of the FAMAS assault rifle. The weapon you saw shorthome might have been a captured weapon. Or it might have been used in an exercice. (I remember a picture showing what I think were a Marine and a French Foreign Legionaire trying out their counterpart’s weapon).

Best regards

Snowman

Hi TTP,

I don’t think that the French chose a dictator. The fact the the French government decided not to support a US initiative in this case doesn’t mean that they sided with Sadam Hussein. Simply that they disagreed with the stated US policy, an, as I remember, a fairly large number of other governments, as well as large numbers of citizens of many other countries didn’t seem to agree with the Bush administration either. It’s not like France was isolated in its opinion about the situation in Irak and the impending war, is it? Also why is France singled out on this?

You say “

The French seemed to relish thumbing their nose at us, and sabuetaging every diplomatic move.”

Seem? You are basing your judgement on appearances? Do you not think it would be more rational to actually try and look for the actual reasons why France chose that course of action? (preferably avoiding simplistic theories which only point to vested insterest because I think that argument cuts both ways).

Funny you should mention Lybia. I am reading a book written by a former member of the Mossad who claims that all was not what it seemed regarding the prelude to US intervention there. I think the gist of that passage goes along the lines of manipulation. If I understood him correctly, he claims also the French were right to dispute some of the intelligence which was revealed at the time. I would not dream of knowing what actually went on behind the scenes, and who is telling the whole truth (if there is such a thing)but this is a reminder that once again, things aren’t always as clear-cut as they might appear.

As far as Generral Schwarzkopf is concerned, what are you saying? That his comments were merely hypocrisy? I might be wrong but he doesn’t strike me as the two-faced type, quite the reverse. Why mention French forces if he thought they were rubbish? Why would he make himself look naive or misinformed by praising soldiers everyone thought were not good or did not perform well? Do you believe French forces achieved nothing during the first Gulf War then?
I too have read that quotation. What does it prove if it is genuine? (I have not yet seen either the source, or the context in which it was uttered). I really fail to see in what way trading insults and pandering to gratuitous and fallacious sterotypes is going to solve the situation.

Once again, you say at the end of you post that France “seem” to prefer dictators. Based on the recent disgreement? So you have forgotten recent military international operations France took part in, then…
Surely you don’t believe that France would chose a dictator. Somebody said recently that it was acceptable, and sometimes even advisable for friends to tell one another they wrong.

There’s so much hysteria surrounding this issue, that I firmly believe quick and simplistic judgement is bound to fuel the flames further. Do you think this is what we need?

Regards,

Snowman

Interesting thread.

It’s veered off a bit from the original topic, but one of the things TTP wrote seemed to me to be very relevant indeed to the matter at hand:

“Bottom line is this
I want freedom!
Give me freedom to dare greatly, even if I fail I will have tried!, I don’t want somebody else responsible for my life!”

Isn’t this part of the issue? French leaders decided on a particular course of action, and followed it. Surely this is at the heart of the discussion. The French government disagreed with what the USA proposed to do and voiced their disagreement within the framework of an international decision-making organisation. I might be extremely naive, but isn’t this exactly the value that we ‘democratic countries’ are meant to cherish, promote and uphold?

As an aside, I was listening the other evening to an audio tape called ‘How we won the war’ which consists almost entirely of a press breifing given by General Schwarzkopf just before the formal end of the first Gulf War. In it, he underlines on a few occasion how well the French forces in the Coalition had performed. Quite apart from the fact that it flies in the face of some quite frankly tiresome and irksome half-jokes about French forces not being competent, it really brought home to me how fast things change…

I really can’t see how it would be in anyone’s interest to continue on this collision course within Western alliances.

Hey, Hand, another OM supporter!

🙂

Didn’t expect to see OM on the site; very nice surprise!

Tu as de toute évidence bon goût!

Dazza

I can assure you I understand where you’re coming from. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I read the various messages. It’ is sickening, and I understand what it means to someone rom the UK coming across this piece of news.

Whatever posessed this or these individual(s) to do such a thing, it is absolutely contrary to what French values are supposed to be about. Only an extremist or a madman (or both) could have done that.

I am sure that French WW2 survivors have not forgotten the debt we owe to all the soldiers who died to free Europe. They must be utterly sick about this.

It’s despicable…

Hi Kev

I think I can understand your feelings.
I sincerely hope the authorities will catch the culprits and deal with them harshly. I also hope the government and the population clearly disacociate themselves from this abhorent act and condemn it roundly and without ambiguity.

The last thing we need at the moment is create more rifts between allies and we need to try as much as possible to keep a clear head. Knee-jerk reactions will only play into the hands of the mindless idiots who commmit such crimes. I hope with all my heart this will not leave the door open for all bigots on both sides to launch attacks and undermine the values we all share.

A straw poll I’ve just conducted among French mates brought about a unanimous condemnation. They were all appalled by it. I can’t believe for a second that this outrage reflects the feelings of the majority.

I also fervently hope Chirac will publicly and unequivoqually condem this act. I know how important it is for the French to prove their complete and utter rejection of such actions to the British population.
I have a feeling the tabloids will have a field day. I know how it will look… This is the last thing the UK and France need at the moment.

I hope the French crack down hard on those responsible and make a clear stand. This cannot be tolerated.