orko_8are you sure the turkish pilot is really Israeli? if so, HAF pilots are sure talented 🙂
That’s an urban legend which is pure fantasy. The pilot is Turkish and currently works in Airlines.
orko_8Do it.
Turkey isn’t going to attack greece. Their posturing is just that: posturing, to serve to the internal population.
They do it because they try to justify many of their internal policies, but they wouldn’t be able to attack Greece in any serious way.
IMO greece doesn’t have to put up with that BS.
Nic
This statement would be true if we, in Turkey would read how our Air Forces play games in the Aegean. Just spare some minutes and google thorugh various Turkish newspaper sites, news portals and try to find news reports about Aegean.
It is indeed amusing that many Greek friends have the illusion of taking each and every action of Turkish Air Force as directed to internal politics.
Turkish general public as well as Greece simply do not care about what happens in Aegean. Press releases from Joint Staff from time to time find place into newspapers with a fancy photo of an F-16. It might even surprise you that most of the time Greek sources are cited.
No one here simply cares. See it for yourself: http://www.gazeteyeri.com/
orko_8Here’s the link (requires Acrobat plugin).
http://www.ssm.gov.tr/anasayfa/hizli/duyurular/projectAnnouncements/Sayfalar/2010tf2000rfi.aspx
It’s not exactly breaking news. I have been hearing for this project since at least the previous century. Now it seems to move on, though its evolution will depend directly on the evolution and lessons learnt from the designing and development of the milgem class corvette.
So this announcement is no big deal. It has happened before. It could mean everything but it could also mean nothing. Still, it seems that something is moving.
The TF-2000 project was started in late-90’s with the aim of procuring an AAW & C2 frigate. The initial number was 8. RfQ was sent to several companies in 1998 for 6 frigates with AEGIS + SM-2. Then came budget problems, 1999 Earthquake, and 2001 economic crisis. Project was shelved for several years and all concentration was focused on MilGem, which covers the local design and development of a corvette.
TF-2000 project officially re-started in 2007 and covers now 4 ships (+2 option). The project is in now conceptual design phase and it is said that it will be in the area of 6,500t – 7,000t class.
Yes probably
Ideally for the turkish navy, the F2000 would to be build “indeginously” by turkish industry
But if this “internal” program experienced too many problem, the foreign option is possible:
– French (Horizon or AAW F400 design), NO, I doubt, because the french is already in talk with greece navy for FREMM frigate….
– German (MEDO D or others design), yes, very probably the first “foreign option”
– Spanish (Alvaro de Bazan AAW frigate), possible, probably the second “foreign option”
Even though the project approach has not been decided yet, it most probably will be a local design, with external support for several subsystems (such as radar and C4ISR systemsi missiles etc)
I too give very slim chances. It could be a miracle. The Cougars are the most notable exception in french-turkish relations. The Eryx if i recall, was cancelled, after the french voted in favour of the recognition of the armenian genocide. I am pretty sure i remember there was political clash before the Turks anounced that they were defective.
Cougar’s were procured (first 20 direct, follow up 30 produced at TAI facilities) in the time of US embargo in 90’s. Operations against seperatist PKK was at maximum and there was urgent requirement for high capacity utility helicopters.
Turkey considered purchasing Mirage 2000 in early stages of Peace Onyx I F-16 production project as a supplement. Another candidate was Tornado, which almost got a contract but literally at the last minute lost due to administrative and legislative problems. Mirage offer turned down because of disagreement on offset deal, which covered extensive modernization of Konya Air Base.
France and Turkey were on the brink of signing of a kind of strategic partnership aggreement in mid-90’s. This relationship included as selection of long range precision guided missiles for F-4E’s (read SCALP) as well as modern C4ISR systems. Everything went down in late 90’s after Armenian legislation passed in French parliament.
orko_8That reminded me the MV Julius Fucik from “Red Storm Rising” novel 😀
orko_84) The Turkish F-16 assembly line closed some years ago, in the 1990s IIRC. The latest purchase of F-16s (straight from the USA, not built in Turkey) is a gap-filler, pending a Turkish purchase of F-35. Turkey & is a JSF consortium member.
The assembly line at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) facilities closed in 1999 when the last F-16 Block 50 was delivered under Peace Onyx II project. It is now being re-opened for serial production of 30 F-16 Block 50+ (Peace Onyx IV), as well as CCIP modernization of the entire fleet under Peace Onyx III.
orko_8…We’re quite happy with the quality and pace of work on the Vikramaditya. We’ve changed tonnes of steel in the ship. A large amount of work that was not foreseen earlier has been done. Hence the issue of whether or not this should be paid for by us. I have conveyed to Russia our view [when it demanded an addition $1.2 billion for the refit]. A contract is a contract. You win some, you lose some. “We have been your major defence partner for some time now and so we can’t have this kind of ad hoc increase in price put into effect,” I said.
Meanwhile, the Ministry of Defence realised that so much work has been done on the ship and maybe there’s a case to give some more money. The engines have been changed. Right now we’re at the stage where a very large amount of cabling, about 3,000 km, has to be redone. Initially the plan was to re-cable wherever it was necessary. Then they thought it would be best to change it entirely.
So what we’re going to get at the end of it, as far as I’m concerned, is a nice, brand-new ship which will doubtless remain operational for 25 to 30 years. That’s the stipulated period, but I hope she’ll last 30 years and more. The Vikramaditya will have some wonderful capabilities and with a versatile aircraft [the MiG 29K], which is integral to its fleet, it would be an ideal platform for us to cover all of the Indian Ocean….
These three paragraphs… unbelieveable.. Absolutely stunning.. 😮
So he basically said:
“I went to Russia and slapped them in the face, looking directly in their eyes! This is a contract! You signed it! We signed it! We are yor best mates! Act accordingly! That’s it! No more vodka for you!”
“But hey MoD boys suddenly REALIZED that, Russkies did all that heavy job. put a lot of cables, changed steels, engines all that stuff.. They worked very hard, earned some more money.”
(for the MiG-fans all over the net) “This ship will have sweet MiG-29K’s, we’ll use her for 30 years. Lets pay some more, it wont hurt huh?”
It seems to me that if Sureesh Mehta had talked a little more, he would have the chance to even rationalize paying a couple of billions of dollars more in return of getting Vikramaditya 100 or some years later!
(excuse the exagerration.. couldn’t help it)
orko_8It seems Algeria is a serious potential customer for the unwanted corvettes.
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2009
Jane’s Navy International
Algeria looks hard at Brunei’s unwanted OPVsRichard Scott
Algeria is in the running to acquire three 95 m F2000 offshore patrol vessels (OPVs) built in the UK for the Royal Brunei Navy (RBN) but never put into service, Jane’s has learned.
The three ships, launched in Glasgow in 2001 and 2002 by BAE Systems Surface Fleet Solutions (now part of BVT Surface Fleet), were the subject of a lengthy legal dispute between the shipbuilder and Royal Brunei Technical Services (RBTS).
While the builder insisted that the OPVs met their contract specification, RBTS refused to take delivery on the grounds that they did not meet requirements and withheld final payment on the GBP750 million (USD1.27 billion) contract.
Brunei eventually accepted title to the ships in April 2007 following a protracted arbitration process. However, the vessels remain under care and maintenance at Barrow-in-Furness in England, with Singapore-based Global Naval Systems (GNS), an affiliate of the Lürssen group, appointed as broker by RBTS for their onward sale.
Algiers has been considering procuring new-build frigates, with BVT, DCNS and ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems all tabling offers. However, there are now suggestions that the government is instead considering the OPVs as a first step, a move that would enable the Marine de la Republique Algerienne to acquire a useful interim capability in a shorter timeframe.
It is understood that any deal involving the three vessels would be structured on a twin-track basis: GNS would broker the sale of the ships to Algeria on behalf of the Sultanate of Brunei; while BVT Surface Fleet, as design authority, would negotiate a parallel contract with Algeria for the regeneration and refit of the ships plus an associated programme of support and training.
The F2000 ships, as built for the RBN, feature a BAE Systems Integrated Systems Technologies (Insyte) NAUTIS II command and weapon control system; MBDA VL Seawolf point defence missile system; Oto Melara 76 mm/62 Super Rapid gun, MBDA MM40 Block 2 Exocet anti-ship missiles; two MSI-Defence single 30 mm REMSIG gun mountings; and two sets of triple torpedo tubes.
Sensors include an Insyte AWS-9 surveillance and target indication radar; Ultra Electronics’ System 2500 electro-optical tracking system; Thales Cutlass 242 electronic support measures outfit and Scorpion jammer; and a Thales TMS 4130C1 hull-mounted medium-frequency sonar.
orko_8Astute suffered fire from her conning tower while at port in April. The handover is delayed I think. Not sure about the repair process.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cumbria/content/image_galleries/sub_fire_200904_gallery.shtml
orko_8Actually I don’t want do de-rate the capabilities of the Turkish Aviation Industry … but the stepp from designing a turboprop-trainer to a jet-fighter is a huge one (maybe ask India, China or others !)
Deino
Agreed.. It’s not on the strategic roadmap of SSM (Undersecretariat for Defence Industries – the organization which oversees and coordinated defence R&D and procurement activities) either.
orko_8Production of the first Hurkus prototype commenced today with an official ceremony at TAI facilities, Akinci, Ankara.
Source (in Turkish): http://www.haberturk.com/ekonomi/haber/159519-Vecihi-Hurkus-anildi.aspx
orko_8uh-oh…
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2009
Jane’s Defence Weekly
Russian Navy facing ‘irreversible collapse’Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent
KievThe Navy’s commander-in-chief has said he would not exclude the possibility of buying naval vessels from abroad
The Russian Navy is currently on the verge of ‘irreversible collapse’, according to a recent analysis published by the authoritative Moscow-based weekly – the Independent Military Review .
The report, entitled ‘BMF RF [Naval Military Fleet of the Russian Federation] on Foreign Warships’, says the main cause for the ‘collapse’ is the state of the Russian shipbuilding industry, which is “incapable of producing warships in either the quantity or at the level of quality that their navy customer requires” for the future.
According to the analysis, the navy’s leadership “understands that this is a hopeless situation and are looking for a way out by considering the purchase of naval vessels from abroad”.
The issue was raised during the International Military Naval Exposition (MVMS) that took place in the last week of June in St Petersburg.
The Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky, outlined the problem when he said: “Our [challenge] is how to significantly improve the condition of our fleet without destroying the economic activity in the country. I also consider the idea of spending billions to repair and upgrade our old ships to be meaningless because they have only 10 years of service left in them. The new ships we would need, it is estimated, must be in service for a minimum of 40-50 years.”
When asked if this meant the Russian Navy would consider purchasing naval vessels from abroad, Adm Vystosky replied: “I will tell you plainly that we do not exclude that possibility.”
According to Russian industry sources, navy officials held talks with both France’s Direction des Constructions Navales Services (DCNS), which was exhibiting at the Russian naval expo for the first time, and European systems house Thales. Russia’s naval leadership is attempting to negotiate a set of co-operative arrangements that would have the navy engaged in:
– the joint production of a variant of the Mistral and Tonnerre BPC (Bâtiment de Projection et de Commandement) ships equipped with a heavy helicopter flight deck and potentially a hovercraft dock for rapid amphibious assault operations;😮
– a Franco-Russian project to design and build a series of nuclear-powered aircraft carriers for both countries’ navies. it has not been decided if these ships could be constructed to be fitted with either ski-ramp take-off decks required to operate the Russian Navy’s Sukhoi Su-33s or the catapult launcher required by France’s Dassault Rafale M.😮
The Russian Navy is also reportedly looking to procure some types of submarine from Germany.:confused:
Russia’s shipbuilding industry suffered more than other segments of the defence industry during a drought of orders since the 1990s. Additionally, the only shipyards that were capable of building an aircraft carrier during Soviet times are located in Ukraine, with which Moscow has had strained relations for the past several years.
orko_8FFG-12 and -14 were cleared to be transferred to Turkey, but the offer was rejected because of the high costs for transfer, refit and turning the cold ships to hot status.
orko_8Since THAAD project gets extra funds, its future is not in risk I think.
orko_8Did PN seek to acquire the 2 Belgian Wielingen class ships? Never heard that before… Sounds like madness, given the Wielingen class dates from 1978 and is essentially as old as the Type 21 Amazon ships from the UK.
Here:
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2008
Jane’s Navy International
Pakistan scours world for second-hand frigatesRichard Scott
The Pakistani Navy is conducting a worldwide search for between four and eight second-hand frigates to bridge a near-term gap in its surface fleet, according to the service’s most senior officer.
Speaking to Jane’s at the DIMDEX 2008 exhibition and conference in Doha, Qatar, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir said that the service had identified a need to acquire second-hand ships as a matter of priority. “We have four new F-22P frigates on order from China, with the last one to be built locally at Karachi,” he said, “and we have also recently released a [request for proposals] to a number of shipyards for a follow-on class.
“But at the same time our six [ex-UK Royal Navy] Type 21 frigates are now approaching the end of their lives. So for meeting our immediate needs we have been looking at the second-hand market. Our requirement is for between four and eight ships.”
Efforts to date to acquire suitable ships have not borne fruit. Discussions with Greece over the purchase of two Elli-class frigates broke down, and an approach to Belgium to buy two Wielingen-class frigates was unsuccessful, with both ships instead being transferred to Bulgaria.
Additionally, in 2005, Pakistan had sought to buy three Type 23 frigates second hand from the UK. However, it eventually lost out to Chile.
“We are very hopeful, and very keen, for the acquisition of ships which can fill the gap in our force for a five-to-10-year period,” Adm Tahir said. “What matters is getting suitable ships at a fair price, and in a relatively short timeframe.”
orko_8The PN are getting 4x new F-22P’s from China which in mission are very similar to the OHP’s, so why would the PN want old ships like these? Sure the Type 21’s are due for replacement soon but I hear they are wanting to build another 4 F-22P’s in their own yards rather than buy from someone else.
Because they require new frigates as soon as possible: Their fleet of Amazon’s are almost at the end of their service lives; another batch of 4 F22P’s will not arrive soon to compansate the gap, albeit this follow-on order will eventually be given. That was the reason they have been so desperately pursuing each and every opportunity such as Belgian Wielingen’s (went to Bulgaria instead) UK Type 23 (went to Chile instead) and Greek Kortenaer’s (iirc found too costly, but not sure).
Sign In
