The hostility is unnecessary.
I had no idea on the number of T-38’s present in the TuAF as compared to two-seat F-5’s. The Turkish Air Force OrBat isn’t committed to my memory. I didn’t look it up until after the fact. Relax man.
A total of 48 N/F-5A/B’s upgraded to F-5 2000 standard have been used in LIFT roles. However, their airframes had very limited useful flight hours left; which led to their eventual retirement this summer. Only a handful will remain for a few years more with the Turkish Stars.
55 T-38A’s are being upgraded to T-38M “Air” (Bee) configuration with an option for 14 more. These will replace the F-5 2000’s. Another more important aspect of the Ari project is, it’s a local programme, versus the Israeli – Singapore F-5 2000 mod.
http://www.balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attachment.php?item=330902&download=2&type=.jpg
First Gyurza.
Looks like a floating BMP armored vehicle!
Thank you.
That puts first flight 5 years after Gripen E deliveries begin. Sequential development.
I, too, was expecting something like a Gripen TR or a derivative of the FS2020 concept. However, it seems that the role of Saab, unlike the latest news article which is faulty, is limited to a consultant / experience provider. Current project model seem to call for an indigenous design, incorporating some foreign systems (like engine), backed up with foreign technical assistance, experience, know-how.
1. Gripen E is currently scheduled to start deliveries in 2018, but that’s for budgetary reasons. It could be earlier if desired. And it isn’t an all-new aircraft. It doesn’t need the development resources of a new type.
2. 2023 is ridiculously optimistic unless it’s a derivative, in which case the same argument applies: it doesn’t need as many resources.
3. I clearly laid out a proposal under which SAAB would be in charge of development. What relevance does TAI’s experience have? There have been many examples of successful projects to make a new product in which the prime contractor has commissioned a subcontractor to lead the development, because it lacks the expertise itself.
2023 is not the IOC date, it is the planned first flight date. IOC is sometime mid 2020’s, probably the second half of that decade.
Engine will be, almost certainly a foreing design, may be a derivative or a licensed production. EJ, F414, F135 among the candidates.
Greece lacked any offensive stand off weapon until recently whilst the Turkish AF included these a long time ago. Add to this a large number of ever increasing landing craft, LVDs and bridging equipment for Thrace of which Greece never fielded. Long range tactical missiles which Greece never sought to acquire.
I cannot recall when did Greece acquire SCALP cruise missiles for the upgraded Mirage 2000, which are far more superior to Popeye, the only long(ish) range PGM TurAF had (for use with F-4E 2020), at the time Greece made the order.
Additionally, you seem to be ignoring the number of ATACMS TBM’s Greece has (153 missiles according to Jane’s, 121 according to SIPRI) versus Turkey’s (72 delivered out of an order of 120, before the US semi-embargo in 90’s) The Yildirim TBM produced under license by China is roughly equivalent to ATACMS, slightly less capable in terms of precision btw.
Also Greece negotiated with Russia on the procurement of Iskander TBM’s sometime in 2003 – 2004 IIRC.
In arms race, you cannot clearly trace who did what first. Here the only difference is Greece arms almost exclusively against Turkey, while the latter’s list of threats & requirements is a little bit longer 😉
By the way, Greece procured and fielded airborne early warning and control aircraft (Erieye) long before Turkey, thanks to the delays in the Peace Eagle project.
Thanks for the info, do you know if there is anything available on the local/BMT design ? or nothing released yet ?
Here it is: http://www.rmkmarine.com/landing-platform-dock-project.html
Interesting shortlist…no mention of the South Korean Dokdo design though?. About 12-18mnths ago the word was that it was a virtually done deal??. Has there been a definitive shift in relations with the South Koreans Orko?
I personally respect South Koreans and love them. They are also very good at shipbuilding but unfortunately a disappoinment in cooperation, project management and documentation. Relations are very good between the two countries but not in terms of joint projects.
The news reports are based on misinformed Turkish local news, which were pretty much confused by the straight deck LPD / LHD project and named it as an aircraft carrier.
Currently there is a project about a 20,000 – 25,000t amphibious assault / helicopter landing ship. Something like a Juan Carlos or Mistral. Contract negotiations expected to commence this year when the winner is selected (Chinese Type 081, modified Juan Carlos 1 and a local design supported by UK BMT). The projected ship is required to be capable of flying 4 helicopters from deck while keeping 8 in hangar; while supporting a fully equipped marine battalion.
On the other hand, the Turkish Navy is playing with the idea of an organic fixed wing force in the long, very long term. This very idea is on the table since the Bosnia / Kosovo operations. There is not a solid project or defined requirement and it will definitely see well after 2020’s.
Thanks for above replies.
Could you be more specific on this point? Is Turkey after a smaller aircraft than KF-X? Just to be sure we’re on the same page, as I understand it KF-X is now looking at ~45,000lb thrust class i.e. same as F-35.
From my initial observations, it seemed that Turkey was up for a heavier, air-air optimized fighter, something in the class of may be PAK FA or J-20, i.e two-engine, heavy and maneoverable. Latest news indicate a tilt towards single engine, agile and affordable fighter, something like a distant cousin of Gripen or F-16.
South Korea on the other hand, indicated that they want a fighter to supplement the F-15K, which forms the backbone of their air force. Expectations and requirements are not very high from the KFX – on the other hand I am hearing extremely challanging req.s for the Turkish FX.
There is also the problem of project management, collaboration and sharing issues. Turkey currently conducts two important projects with South Korea: KT-1T (which is about to be completed) and the Altay main battle tank project. And Turkish experience on S. Korean’s project management, documentation and coordination skills is rather bitter, to say the least.
Orko there are reports that Turkey has subsequently returned to the negotiating table with Korea, with SAAB’s involvement. Are you rejecting these claims?
Haven’t heard anything supporting those reports neither from industry nor air force. South Korea’s priorities are way different than Turkey on fighters. For now, Saab seems to be the major information & consultancy provider.
The conceptual design / CONOPS / feasibility study is to be concluded this September. After that the go for the preliminary design will be given by the government. The project model is likely to be finalized that time.
lol there goes slowman’s assumption that Turkey will return to kfx.
There were talks at the very beginning of the conceptual design & feasibility phase of the TX / FX project. However, it turns out that South Korea’a expectations from its KFX is way different than Turkey’s. S.Korea just wants a fighter to supplement its F-15K (and probably F-15SE) fleet; while Turkey wants a successor to F-16’s / supplement to F-35. Additionally, there were many disagreements on the work share, technology transfer etc.
Currently, Saab is something between a consultant and know – how provider.
Iranians seem to waste F-4 and F-5 airframes frantically to show “new” designs of “indigenous” fighters (just like the case with Cobra and Bell 214 airframes).
But I don’t remember any “new designs” using F-14, MiG-29 or Mirage F1 parts and/or airframes. Why? Maybe those are the only working examples of a semi-modern air power they have at hand against external threats.
Didn’t a Turkish F-4 get shot down by the Syrians a few months ago while carrying out a recon mission?
Yes. That was a FY77 airframe RF-4E (77-0314)
Until very recently, TurAF had operated some FY66, FY67 F-4E’s, all of which were retired last year. More than 45 F-4E 2020’s (almost all of them FY73, 77 airframes) plus several RF-4E’s (FY77) remain in service.
Some 30 – 35 F-5-2000’s are active, FY66, 67, 70, 71 and 72.
KC-135R’s of the 101 Filo are FY58, 60 and 62 airframes; which were – AFAIK – selected from AMARG and received PACER CRAG upgrade.
BOOM!
Turkey cancels order for two F-35 JSF’s, stating that the project fell behind the schedule, increasing costs and the operational capabilities of the aircraft fell behind the required level. The procurement agency announced that the decision will be re-considered in 2014.
Source: Anatolian News Agency: http://www.aa.com.tr/tr/haberler/120702–f-35te-kritik-karar
Turkey: T-37B/C Tweet
F-4E Phantom II (45+ upgraded F-4E 2020 remain in service)
F-16 SoloTurk
