Grizzly012008/08 AFM, the special report for F-22A：
1. During the April of 2008, the Raptor fighters of 1st and 192th FWs accepted ORI (Operational Readiness Inspection) test to show their capability of Air Dominance. The red force with significant advantage in numbers they faced was composed by F-15C, AT-38 (a very tough opponent for dogfight), and Navy’s Superhornet, and the final exchange ratio the F-22A had achieved was ~ 220:0.
2. The maximal speed of F-22A in high altitude: 2.25 Mach at 45,000 fts.
3. The maximal speed of F-22A in low altitude: 1.40 Mach at sea level.
4. The maximal supercruising speed of F-22A: 1.82 Mach.
5. The minimal 360 degrees level-turning radius of F-22A in low altidtude: 750 fts / 228.6 m.
(I wonder if any other fighter has achieved the similar performance in traditional level-turning during the airshow).
Some sources claim that Mig-29 can do 225m at 216knts. Su-27’s minimum turn radius is listed as 450m, and F-16’s as 400m. What is remarkable is that Raptor combines agility, supercruise, stealth in one platform.
Grizzly01Do we have any hard data on the F-22……..;)
Well, the topic of this thread is Su-35 vs. Eurocanards. As the only 5th generation fighter in service, Raptor has no real competitor as of now. Sukhoi officials recognize this too by calling Su-35BM a generation 4++ fighter.
Grizzly01At least SAAB released maximum turn rates for the Gripen. What are the numbers for Typhoon? All we hear is statements like “outperforms, outturns, outaccelerates all current fighters”, “runs circles during exercises” without any hard data to back up those claims.
Grizzly01They were not detuned from the start till to the end. That detuned engines were for a limited period only, because the gains from that did not fulfil.
At the time of the training engagement at Decimomannu the engines of
German MiG-29s were detuned by 10 percent. Also, MiGs were flying with centerline drop tank, while F-16s were clean. I still have original AFM of October 1995 No. 91. In a different article one of the F-16’s pilots said that if F-16 would have carried drop tank, the two planes would have been pretty much equal. In my opinion, F-16C Block 50 and MiG-29A are evenly matched in subsonic regime and pilot training and experience is the deciding factor.
Grizzly01I seem to remember a PiBu article on the various versions of the Mig-29 mentioned and he described the difference between the Mig-29SM and Mig-29SMT was rather more than just Toplivo. Many of the other changes made to improve it and they are quite different aircraft.
Having said that however considering that the Su-27 has gotten an SM upgrade and the Su-25 has had an SM upgrade I think that perhaps the Mig-29 might be getting a similar incomplete upgrade to perhaps improve the air to air capability (SM included R-77 capability from memory) and the addition of air to ground capability, though likely this will be enhanced with a pod mounted laser Thermal Imaging Glonass system to allow the Mig-29s in Russian service operate in much the same way the F-16 operates in the USAF… a sort of bomb truck that is also a swing fighter for shorter range missions.
The Su-25 should be operated by the Russian Army. The Su-24 is deep strike or heavy medium range strike. With a small investment both are still very capable aircraft that seem to be popular with those that have them.
Having Mig-29s able to operate as fighters and bombers however means targets can probably be hit harder and quicker.
For ground support there is really no replacement for a plane that is armoured and can loiter and fly low and slow enough to find and hit targets.
…perhaps this technology can help with MANPADS:
Sorry about the length of the link…. I thought you would appreciate it in English. Anyway basically it describes a fully autonomous DIRCM system developed together with a Spanish company for use on aircraft and helos. According to the article the product is already in production.
Do you have any information on engine upgrade for MiG-29? Ten years ago when the MiG-29SMT appeared, it was claimed that it will eventually receive “RD-43” with 10,000 kg of thrust. Latest Fulcrums still have RD-33s with modest increase in thrust(8,700). Are there any plans to improve thrust to weight ratio of MiG-29 to allow it to be viable against latest European fighters?
Grizzly01Modernizing the Su-25 makes sense, it has performed well when needed. If Russia wanted to go postal on the Chechens it would seem like an ideal platform. The Su-24 upgrade will keep their strike fleet viable as the Su-34 begins to be fielded in increasing numbers.
I respect your opinion, but Su-25’s original role was close air support. While upgrades increase its accuracy and efficiency, nothing can be done to improve its survivability against modern air threats. It cannot self-escort itself to the target area. Also, its relatively low speed makes it vulnerable to modern SAMs. The Su-24 is of course much more capable, but it is more expensive to operate and maintain, and its replacement, Su-34, is not really a dual role aircraft as F-15E for example. Its range, payload, low altitude performance are impressive , but its air-to-air capabilities are limited due to G limits and low thrust-to-weight ratio.
Grizzly01Are these MiG-29s ex-Algerian examples or are they modernized RuAF planes? In anyway, upgrading MiG-29s makes more sense than to modernize obsolete Su-25s and Su-24s. It will finally give RuAF multi-role aircraft in the class of F-16C.
Grizzly01Since Su-35BM is KNAAPO product, is there a possibility that Irkutsk plant will produce its own advanced version of the Su-30MKI/MKM?
Grizzly01Sorry if my question hasn’t been clear enough. Here is an exemple of what I had in mind: I was wondering, what your oppinion is, relating to such claims like those on the part of the Israeli AF, according to which, they have shot down 29 Syrian AF fighters on 09-06-1982, to no loss, another 35 syrian fighters the next day, to no loss, and about 100 syrian planes in total, by the end of July 1982, to the loss of a single RF-4E, and an A-4 downed by SA-7.
“Within half an hour, we shot down about 26 MiGs,” David Ivry, who was second in command of the IAF at the time, previously told Air Force Magazine. See http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=69154,
also “the tally grew so, that by noon on Friday (11-06-1982), when a cease-fire took effect, IAF pilots had shot down 82 airplanes whithout losing any in air combat”
(see http://www.afa.org/magazine/June2002/0602bekaa.pdf).
Another similar case, is represented by the RAF pilots’ claims, to have scored 26 shoot-downs and 9 probables, to the loss of a single Gladiator, during an engagement with the Regia Aeronautica, over the greco-italian front, on 28-02-1941.
(see http://www.geocities.com/acrawford0/80RAF.html).
So, what do you folks think about these, or other similar claims? How likely is it, that events have unfolded the way described, or else said, to what percent should the claimed scores perhaps be reduced, in order to obtain a picture, somehow close to reality?
In two publications the real IAF losses were stated as 13 aircraft (probable F-16, F-4, two A-4s among them). Surprisingly, those publications were written by Western authors, so perhaps IAF downplayed its losses to some degree. It wasn’t exactly operation Allied Force, where airwar was under close media scrutiny. It was still a major victory of IAF over Syrian AF and air defenses, but I think more research is needed.
Grizzly01What about the EF-111A that got a kill by outmaneuvering the Iraqi pilot in DESERT STORM?
According to Osprey publication by Steve Davies on F-15C operations during Desert Storm, Iraqi Mirage F1 crashed while avoiding F-15Cs. Also, Eagle pilots claimed that EF-111A was nowhere near the Mirages.
Grizzly01Col.-Gen. Alexander Zelin said on Saturday that NATO aircraft were approaching Russian bombers too closely and too often, creating risky situations.
“They approach our strategic bombers at unacceptable distances and at unacceptable intervals, conduct various maneuvers around them and violate flight safety rules in every way,” Zelin was quoted by the Interfax news agency as telling reporters Saturday
Zelin complained that NATO F-15, F-16 and F-22 fighter jets regularly “attack” Russian bombers over the Arctic Ocean.
“It is not a misuse of the word ‘attack’ because our partners are training for combat actions, reaching the point of an attack,” Zelin was quoted as saying.
“I must confess that this is quite unpleasant and even dangerous. Naturally, we rehearse our counteractions.”
Should Russia allow her fighters to escort the bombers?
What are your opinoins on this?
I think this might be an opportunity for the Russians to probe the F-22’s?
What are the options for Russian AF regarding fighter escort aircraft? Is it going to be MiG-31 or Su-27SM?
Grizzly01Before this thread disappears, I have one question regarding latest MiG-29 variants. In “Famous Russian Aircraft” MiG-29 book the range for MiG-29M2 on internal fuel is stated as 1800km. MiG-29KUB’s range is 1600km. However, the range for “original” MiG-29M 9-15 was 2000km. Is there an explanation to why the newer models have higher take-off weight, greater fuel capacity and yet have shorter range? Thanks in advance for any replies.
Grizzly01I have talked with the USAF Officer who sourced the East German MiG-23MLs for Air Combat Command. He states categorically that they were sourced for static exploitation. One is in the Threat Training Facility at Nellis, but I do not know the whereabouts of the others.
It is possible one or more was siphoned off by Air Force Materiel Command and flown, but I cannot confirm that.
Thank you for the reply. In unrelated matter, I have to comment that “F-15C Eagle Units In Combat” and “Eagles Engaged” are in my opinion the best titles written on F-15 Eagle subject. Highly recommended to all aviation fans.
Grizzly01What about 12 East German MiG-23MLs? Are still being flown? Also, I believe more MiG-23s were acquired from Poland and Czech Republic. With Syria and North Korea still operating MiG-23 it would seem logical to keep few Floggers in flyable condition. Thanks in advance for any additional information.
Grizzly01If I recall, Saddams’s air force used the same standard version of the MiG-25 as used by the Soviet Union, the MiG-25PD.
Is there such a thing as a “downgraded export version” of the MiG-25?
Iraqi MiG-25s were of MiG-25PD Export standard with RP-25 Smerch-A2 radar of the original MiG-25P. Soviet MiG-25PD used Sapfir-25 N-005. Also, Iraqi MiG-29s had N-019E radar. It would seem logical to assume that it had downgraded ECM resistance, since MiG-23MFs and MLs supplied to Iraq had downgraded radar sets.
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