PuffadderThat is the point with the AIM 54. By n way it is a dogfight missile. But it has a very long range, and it is fast. So, there is a good chance you’ll be hit before knowing a missile is in the vicinity.
Frank, with the ecm equipment fitted to most modern fighters nowadays it would be quite likely that the target pilot would actually know that a missile has been launched at him, and the pilot would probably be able to exhaust the missile´s energy. The AIM-54C is very much a seventies missile. I´m suprised that it evokes so much passion nowadays.
The F14 was extremely expensive as regards maintenance. The SH allows force planners to realise single type fleets aboard the US carrier force- and that counts for a lot.
We don´t yet know exactly how well the F35 will do. Let´s face it, things aren´t going swimmingly right now.
PuffadderHi guys.
Some things never change 🙂
Guys, how can you use the results of an aerial conflict fought by two deadbeats- Iraq and Iran- to underscore the “fantastic” capabilities of the AIM-54. I cannot claim to be privy to secret information regarding the AIM-54 but I´m going to go on a limb and suggest that it´s “end game” capability is modest. Furthermore, I suggest to you that it´s manouvering intercept capability at extended short range and medium range is also not spectacular: a short reminder- the C model had a launch weight of no less than 1020 lbs. The wing- tail fin size and configuration don´t really allude to a highly agile airframe. If you consider what the Yanks were trying to achieve at the time, the resulting size and weight of the missile are no suprise. At the time of it´s introduction it had no peer, but that time has past.
I´m keen to know what effect the carriage of a couple of AIM-54´s have/ had on the F14 dogfight capability.
Against slow moving and/or high value targets it´s 132 lbs warhead is no doubt devastating, but against an opponent versed in counter MRAAM tactics I doubt it would be very effective.
The much maligned Super Hornet is a carrier capable multirole fighter- thus it is a compromise of compromises, but that doesn´t mean that it´s a bad plane. The surreptitious manner in which it´s development funding was secured can be fairly criticised, but that is hardly the plane´s fault.
PuffadderTo really drive home what a dog the SH is it’s about the same weight as an F-15. Compare performance, weapons load, and range. Sure the SH can fly a few more degrees AOA but BFD.
..only problem is, you won´t get an Eagle off the deck- well perhaps one time.
I can imagine the tomcats doing the slaughtering all right!
Really?
SOC, I cannot believe that, given the choice, you would rather have a brace of AIM-54´s under your wings than a brace of AIM-120. The AIM54 is/was a turkey. They tried to rework the thing into an MRAAM but it still didn´t work.
PuffadderNice link.
An era comes to an end.
The pilots are going to love the Mirage 2000 though- so will the maintenance guys.
PuffadderBad press, good press
Hi DJJ
regarding the press that the Rafale has received I agree with you to a certain point. You point to the articles by Henri Pierre Grolleau- which I found most informative.
It wasn´t always like that. In 1997 AFM invited several politicians and defence analysts to give their views regarding the Typhoon. Some of the defence analysts and aviation journalists invited by AFM to opine on the Typhoon then launched a comparison of the Rafale and Typhoon. The Rafale didn´t receive much good press. Some of the comments made truly startled me. Some years ago an author named Isby submitted an article that made my hair stand on end.
If you check out my posts over the last 6 years you´ll see that I am undeniably and unashamedly pro-Dassault but that doesn´t make me anti-Typhoon. I have always vigourously defended the Rafale- that´s mostly because the Typhoon was always regarded more favourably than the Rafale, mostly because of mind numbing jingoism than any impartial comparison of the two. It may well be that the balance of opinion has now shifed.
More generally I do discern a certain antipathy toward French defence aerospace products (perhaps I´m overly sensitive). Take a look at posts regarding the MICA missile. Some of the comments are simply laughable. Years ago the French gave the American some Magic II missiles for purposes of evaluation. The Yanks have something called the Foreign Comparative Test Program (FCTP) and regularly invite countries to contribute military hardware for comparative testing. The Magic II did extremely well- but that is not suprising if you actually look at the layout and physical characteristics of that missile. Yet here and in many publication it is generally considered inferior to all others.
As regards my own posts concerning the Typhoon I think that they have been well balanced. Where they do seem outrageous , a smiley icon will usually show that they were tongue in cheek.
PuffadderPhil, you silly twisted boy
Yup……………………..A Typhoon.
Phil 🙂
Oh Phil, you poor lost and twisted soul, still following the chimera of the Typhoon´s superiority- after all these years. It´s all my fault- my lengthly absence is to blame. Who has poisoned your mind in this most foul manner.
Take heart, you will soon reconcile yourself with the urgent realisation of the Rafale´s superiority- the superb fuselage, the FULLY OPENED FCS, the pure sophistication of the intake design, the curvacious CFTs- that were demonstrated almost five years ago, the massive strength of the undercarriage- that actually extends as reliably as it retracts, the extensive I-can-carry-anything hardpoint distribution, the multitasking radar, the simple M88- combining rugged strength and fantastic throttle response- this must be Hell on earth for you :diablo:
Fear not, the recent disposal to Saudi Arabia was just the beginning, the RAF will soon be free of second best. I shall personally speed up production of the Rafale to meet the inevitable demand from the RAF and thus contribute to the fine reputation of that most august airforce.
Aahh Rafale !
Aahh Dassault !
Aahh France- the true home of European combat aircraft 🙂
PuffadderBlk 60 down
Hi Fedaykin
I did actually post the Blk 60 loss two days ago but it seems to have attracted little interest. It will be interesting to see how the engine copes out there in the desert. As long as American crews are maintaining the plane it will be fine. However the -132 engine is typically American- balls to the wall, full tilt gonzo, max power and I think the UAE will have problems maintaining that engine on their own. The FADEC will derate the engine as wear and tear increases but even so I believe that for the first two or three years they will be pulling the engine regularly to make sure the wear isn´t more than what has been calculated. check out the thread.
http://www.geae.com/engines/military/f110/index.html
As regards the Typhoon this is a sensitive issue here on this forum- briefly all the forum members allegiances can be pidgeon holed as follows :dev2:
a: the F18 Super Hornet is a fantastic plane
b: the Typhoon represents the pinnacle of European combat aviation
c: the Rafale is the only aircraft offering a sensible mix of A2A and A2G capabilities
Trash any of the above and see what happens 🙂
PuffadderHi Target
I have seen one artists impression of a notional heavy lift copter. It had a large 5 or 7 bladed rotor and a large rear loading ramp. Think of a really large Super Puma with a ramp. There is a realistic chance that the US and Europe could actually get this thing going. Both have a requirement although it will be easier to get five European countries to agree on a common platform than it will be to get all the American services to agree.
PuffadderHi DDJ
Most any discussion regarding the Typhoon usually turns into a “My Rafale will beat up your Typhoon” debate. Check out my posts going back five years and you will see that I´m one of the chief culprits.
The Rafale´s air-to-ground capability is undeniably better than that of the Typhoon. It has more hardpoints, more of them are “heavy”, more of them are “wet” and it can carry more outright. Some more subtle details like the absence of a dedicated airbrake and simple to remove air intakes point to a manufacturer that has many years experience in the field of fighter aircraft.
The Typhoon probably has a slight edge in terms of outright turn performance but it is not much. I don´t want this thread to degenerate into a “let´s trash the Typhoon” thread. It can carry lots and flies like hell- I´ve seen it fly several times now. It is going to be a fine plane.
However if I know that I´m going to spend a winter operating from some rudimentary wind-swept runway in central Asia without the luxury of a heated hangar I know which plane will be on my wishlist.
PuffadderHi Aurel
As I said the ECR90 has greater range than the RBE2. It’s a good radar but the AdlA and the Aeronavale needed a terrain-following capability and good mapping capabilities. And all of this in a package that would withstand carrier landings reliably. RBE2 does that.
IMHO the biggest mistake that Typhoon Inc made was not to go to the halfway solution ie. a passive array. They would then be able to add the active array at a later stage and it would probably be cheaper than modifying the Captor later- assuming that it can be modified. They say it can. Let’s wait an see what happens.
The RBE2 architecture originated in the USA- from Texas Instruments actually (Thomson was a partner on the program). The USAF was considering going for a passive array but then dropped the idea and went “balls to the wall” for an active array. That’s how the PESA technology migrated to France.
Let’s face it- they’re the only ones who could actually pay for the development.
It may well happen that Germany is left out in the cold because the others are investing in the F35 whose costs are going up as numbers go down.
As regards “priority for Europe” it is indeed correct to say that the Rafale is of no consequence. It’s a pity.
PuffadderIt were not the USA alone, which left Lebanon in 1983.
Without the USA the Taliban will still rule Afghanistan.
The US containement politics against former Somalia does work so far.
To change a “political-system” takes decades sometimes, as we can see in the Balkans too. The Europeans poured billions into that and an end to that is still not in sight. To blame someone is a double sided sword.
Yes, France left as well.
I was responding to the following posted by US Agent:
“Winning aside…we actually stand and fight them”
Nothing much has changed in Afghanistan. Some seem to think that the Talibs are some tiny minority that just somehow managed to get to power by some magic slight of hand. They didn’t. Afghanistan was in the grip of a civil war with one lot of dirtbags pitted against the other. Some seem to think that only when the Taliban came to power did Afghan men treat their wives and daughters like cr@p. Not the case.
In most areas of Afghanistan nothing has changed. Do I believe that we should be there? Yes. Hopefully modernity will come to the Afghans- but I’m sceptical. The US gave the Russians lots of money to buy weapons for the NA and bought the loyalty of the tribal chiefs. This, coupled with B52’s removed the Taliban. As long as the Dollars flow the loyalty will hold.
Containing Somalia? What the hell is there to contain? The country is a cr@phole. There is no military juggernaut waiting to taking over the world. What the hell are you talking about!
The disintegration of Jugoslavia and the resulting civil war has not led to the outcome that we desire. It will. These people can all read, population growth is stable. Women can control their reproductivity. These are the attributes that precede modernity. Serbia is going through a rough patch but that is changing.
Sauron, If I express the belief that evolution is responsible for the ascendency of Man on this planet and that the Adam and Eve story should not be taken literally does that make me anti-Christian? I am Christian.
The Americans took a stand in Vietnam, lost 58000 men and poison the landscape with Agent Orange. That will never happen again.
Following the first Gulf war and commenting on the possibility of invading Bosnia and perhaps Serbia, Colin Powell said “We do deserts”
Does bombing the s**t out of a desert bound country with a population of 25 million (whilst not even counting the number of civilians killed) whose army cannot fight it’s way out of a paperpacket sound like taking a stand?
Invading North Korea (you know, the ones who really DO have WMD) is taking a stand. Think that’s going to happen? Huh?
For God’s sake grow up.
Puffadder😀
I was wondering if you would take my bait.
Sure, Airbus also occasionally has problems. The increasingly fragmented risk-sharing and design responsibilities that now characterise the airliner industry mean that in future we may well see even more of that. This goes for Boeing as well.
You’re are unashamedly pro Boeing- that’s OK. I’m unashamedly pro Airbus although commercial aviation is not my forté. I do believe that the A350 will be a lower risk development process than will be the 787.
Allow me to quote myself from that last post. “Certainly the 787 will lead whereas the A350 will follow”.
Of course, Boeing could well decide upon a similar stategy for the 747 that would allow it to be an A380 spoiler- I hope not.
As regards my 737/A320 comparison did I compare like with like?
Puffadder😀
I was wondering if you would take my bait.
Sure, Airbus also occasionally has problems. The increasingly fragmented risk-sharing and design responsibilities that now characterise the airliner industry mean that in future we may well see even more of that. This goes for Boeing as well.
You’re are unashamedly pro Boeing- that’s OK. I’m unashamedly pro Airbus although commercial aviation is not my forté. I do believe that the A350 will be a lower risk development process than will be the 787.
Allow me to quote myself from that last post. “Certainly the 787 will lead whereas the A350 will follow”.
Of course, Boeing could well decide upon a similar stategy for the 747 that would allow it to be an A380 spoiler- I hope not.
As regards my 737/A320 comparison did I compare like with like?
PuffadderAre you referring to the less than inspiring performance of the AMRAAM on the F.3s prior to the F.3s receiving a datalink to allowing the full exploitation of the missiles performance?
Daniel
Yes but also before that. But as I said, things have changed.
Hi Ogami.
Typhoon is more agile than the Rafale at higher speeds, I’m sure of that.
As for the Su-37 you must remember that it is a development of the Su-27. The Typhoon has been a long coupled canard delta from the word go. The FCS has experienced problems but those are being ironed out. The thrust to weight ratio is only part of the equation- there isn’t much difference between the Rafale and the Typhoon. This is especially true if you take into account the difference in weight between an AIM-120 sixpack and a MICA sixpack and if you factor in the same fuel fraction.
More generally, a point that I have made in the past but seems to be ignored is the fact that three of the four Typhoon partners are also buying the F35.
The Typhoon will face domestic competition as regards funding.
France is sticking to the Rafale. The avionics upgrades will also go into the Mirage 2000. That just has to be an advantage.
PuffadderAlso if memory serves me correct, most of the ground fighting against the Tallibunnies in Afghanistan was conducted by Northern Alliance troops.
They gave the Russians a sack of money and told them to deliver weapons to the Northern Alliance and bought the warlords’ loyalties.
The Afghan government’s writ doesn’t run much past Kabul city limits.
The country’s a mess.
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