Alf’s Essex Historic M V A Offer to Cockpiters / Exhibitors

Sorry I couldn’t reply over weekend Alf * – in deepest Devon for a family 60th in a hollow with no reception – after coming back past Yeovilton and saying goodbye to eldest bruv and other family on Monday, I found on Tuesday that he was in E.Surrey Hospital with viral meningitis – recovering now, but it was dicey at one point.

Anyway, had your fish n chips this evenin’ as usual eh lad? How do you manage all that training and welding on such a limited diet Alf?

Aiming to do a good display of aviation bits on some tables for this event and will try to confirm soonest, just lots of other dates to sort out first for another meet, along with loads of paperwork to do, e-mails, traffic fines to sort etc along with other stuff that I hope will make some money, and I still haven’t responded about V Reunion yet or started the March issue of Victor Assoc News!

I will now microwave something here and crack on and will update Alfie soonest – could do general V items, or Harrier displays, or both, or even more of a general selection, but all nice to look at for the general public –

As with Newark, I see beer seems to be available too, so if some aviation table exhibitors are at a loose end, why not come to this event and give the military people an idea of some of the varied preservation and restoration projects aviation collectors/restorers/cockpiters get up to, and make ourselves and what we do a bit better know elsewhere within the general military collecting sphere?

* Have you seen that compilation annual of Alf Tupper yet? Its a dream, “I did it it! I run ‘im!”

Looking good Dave
Robbie

It certainly is, any chance of seeing the port console fit with throttle box and the stb’d console fit plus stb’d pilots main panels plz?

At least the A&G engineers (?) seemed to have removed the leading and trailing edge flaps before breaking out the Stihl saw on ‘499. That should make it a bit neater when (if) it ever goes back together.

Can anybody postulate/suggest a likely value of XV499’s airframe as it stands? Apart from it being cut I understand the cockpit is completely stripped out and that will not be easy or cheap to re-equip.

Anon.

The worry is that certain parts of the eBay market might see another ‘niche’ opportunity to tart and talk it up with lots of exhortating exclamations accompanied by the unwanted beer garden/footballer/city whizkid price tag chancing that many preservationists have all grown fed up with over the years.

I think a jumble at RAF Hendon would have it own problems as I could see them asking for public liability insurance as they do with the re-enactors who attend. Again this would in effect kill it for the booter who is just moving on personal artifacts, the business’s already have or should have this in place.

I agree, if any silly rules and regs come into play that should be covered by the museum as at other boot venues then it would be of nil interest to sellers.

WEBSITE REVIEW

Thx Mike,

We heard the tables themselves were sold out but it was just hearing at the last moment on Friday that NAM mentioned a number of public callers to the museum had inquired whether it was for them also that caused some comment, so yes clear wording is paramount when costs are clearly a consideration.

I can see what you mean about amendment costs in-house also, whether done by NAM solely with its own graphic or done by NAM using the ‘heads up” panel prog Brooklands use. It has to be a weigh-up I guess if one or t’other would be worthwhile.

If alterable web pages are limited through understandable cost reasons then the important events listing in aiming to get more footfall for all events that NAM handles during the year, might be deemed worthy of attention at a later date. Will e-mail you shortly.

NAM AEROBOOT / ADVERTiSING / SELLING ETC

I agree ‘oldgit’, having boots on or near to airfields or at museums is best while just two a year would be too restrictive a dilution as well as monopolyist for any organisers concerned also I would suggest. A few new smaller ones like Old Sarum are needed to keep the spirit and potential for bargains alive and would compensate those that might well miss such a restricted number of just 2 events. If I hadn’t attended such smaller events in recent years I wouldn’t now have items like an early Lightning fin top display, a Vulcan pressurization panel, Harrier seat, hand-painted 1 Sqn Mk.1A helmet, and a hand-painted 56 Sqn Lightning panel display – some acquired by face-to-face networking and not directly from a boot itself.

I go to both smaller local and established events like Shoreham & Popham though I know many can’t while just 2 events a year would mean a notable loss of this vital one-to-one networking. Personally I can’t wait solely until the next ‘Fest boot for kit when we are still on the look out for existing or new projects to acquire before that time, especially in view of its drop in dealers both old and new this year. If the fuel cost is prohibitive even on a twice-yearly basis excluding the ‘Fest itself re standard NAM aeroboot events, then people have to make their own decisions obviously.

Yes eBay is greedily killing itself along with some chancing businesses and private sellers and I noted the latest ploy of charging 10% on postage. People previously selling small items for some spare cash have been forced off as the post costs are often refused for being greater than the item itself. For supporters of the last postal increase I can only say that people can’t afford to post many letters these days, while the parcel service is profitable because it has modernized while still enjoying like BT, a greater monopoly – eg. who wants to pay these ridiculous pre-historic ‘line rental’ charges anymore, with an increased charge for VAT? That’s why I’m online at an office as its paid by someone else.

I also bought a Victor fuel measures chart for £5 which had previously been up on the Bay Baron’s site of selling but which I couldn’t be bothered to bid on, as I simply hate buying from it and fostering the Bay Barons’ greed. I seem to be getting daily exhortations and offers from them on e-mail which I take to mean that they are trying to keep profits up in a recession. Something I sold provided an interesting response in that as expected, I was asked on a well-priced item as to what I ‘could do’ on it. I told the interested party that a similar item on eBay was currently for sale at £300.

EBAYUS MORE EXPENSIVE
The quick retort was ‘Yes, but will it sell?’ While it might well sell eventually if it rotates month after month or might sell in its first offering, I could have pointed out that if the ebay seller had put his item up for comfortably under HALF his current price (as I was asking for my item), then yes it would definitely have sold. The ‘bay didn’t influence my price I must say, it was based on my aeroboot experience. The person concerned was an old hand just chancing his arm and I felt that on that occasion I would let it go and reduced it a bit further as I’m sure he’s also a good boy to his mum, but its not something that we can always do of course. A similar question aiming at a reduction was chanced by someone buying my used Harrier GR3 front screens for £10 ea, but as he always does it and I knew that my price was very fair, I declined – he said “You’ve got to try haven’t yer?” on handing over his £20. Sometimes maybe, but not always.

I agree too on the clear pricing of items, in general I’ve found most put prices on their wares but there are exceptions, and one such seller at the ‘Fest always has nil prices on all of the items offered – I never bother to ask these days as they seemed expensive the first time I ever asked and I presumed they couldn’t be bothered to re-price them as they must vary them according to the other events they attend during the year. I try to use fluorescent labels in the main as they attract attention besides conveying a clear description and price of items more readily than little white stickers. I bought some excellent items at NAM including altimeters and a mint set of Beverley headphones. Some items are what they are and need some TLC, but I agree its not good if they’re clearly not clean where they could be, and often for little effort.

I think its the case that as Mike says, some dealers who can’t bring newer stock will inevitably struggle and if he can only re-stock at events like NAM then it must be even harder for him if he can’t get other newer bits from other sources to offer with his existing items. I left a lot of mine at home as it was possible to bring mainly newer stuff this time – including instrumentation from Old Sarum, some of which sold. I also had a good-value item that I knew a preservationist was attending might well need, and a deal was struck on the day. Mark also had a well-priced Tornado console panels project on offer that someone had to tear himself away from! Other items I had never brought before sold along with some others that hadn’t, and I made over £300 – this was fortunate as I saw 4 crashes on the wet roads coming and going, with one on the M11 meaning that I had to go back into London by A1/406, adding nearly £10 to my bill which was around £47-£48.

PITCH PRICING / ADVERTISING
The NAM boot is fairly priced and its up to sellers to decide with management if a different way forward can be found or we run with what we have and accept attendances that many feel aren’t worthwhile by buers/public. A meeting was offered at NAM but was not taken up as sellers wanted to get away as usual so its back to online proposals and finding some kind of consensus.

Do sellers want to pay say £25 to pay for more advertising, and what that could be used for? We know that many people don’t use computers for their info, they read national mags but ads cost money. If 40 dealers attended on Saturday then the extra £10 on the current fee would bring in £400 for some ads and/or small digital print run of A5 mailers, that sellers would need to personally post in local shops, as post is too expensive these days.

An aeroboot at RAF Hendon (its correct name for many of us) would certainly liven it up and be an obviously good backdrop, even if a one-off. Yes we need to support these events as much as possible. See ‘NAM Website’ next.

Nitty-Grittying

“What I’d like to see is us as a hobby/obsession be more outward looking, attend more events that aren’t solely aviation, even offering to attend. Then maybe if we did dry up and disappear people would miss us.”

Unless someone lives locally to Shoreham with a cockpit its unlikely they will attend as its time, planning and logistics and tellingly, fuel to consider. I’d love to exhibit my cockpit there but my situation is a bit awkward as its in a Suffolk museum and I live in London – the museum is closed on Fridays/Saturdays while Shoreham is a one-dayer and a weekend display would be needed to make the trek worthwhile in terms of effort alone.

Even if my fuel was paid for the logistics and physical demands of taking it to and from a shared military event closer to home in Essex or surrounding areas, would still be a lot of effort. As Andy says, another problem is that I go to Shoreham to buy too, but some time could be found to open it up in between rummaging kit later in the day I hope! There are many practicalities and while my experiences at the Newark Cockpit Fest in 2012 when taking the Sea Hawk there meant that it was a good time, I couldn’t do it very often as I have too many other things on and out-goings on my plate (including finding a job) along with those physical distances, logistics and costs involved, to input into it.

Living nearer and having my own storage/garage facility would make this much more doable of course – but then the public wouldn’t get to see the cockpit at the museum throughout the year, which is a big personal reason for preserving aviation heritage. Cockpits don’t go to the great scrapyard in the sky, they usually pass on when their owners pass on or they are sold beforehand for other reasons. Some of the aircraft types David lists like the Defiant are fledgling projects I agree, but equally others like Harrier and Anson are already viable cockpits which are coming along on their refurbishment – I agree David, its good to annoy some dealers too as that’s a two-way thing!

Its an obvious drawback that a cockpit can’t move under its own power and that’s understandably part of the attraction of military vehicles as discussed, especially some of the lighter stuff like jeeps, though they must have to be worked on before events and will suffer from breakdowns here and there. Most cockpit owners I know who have one or above, are with museums too or have more land and are ‘up north’ and/or well away from London, where things are cheaper to live and rent storage from if needed.

I’ve been told that many cockpit people don’t want to ‘get in’ with military people which adds to the niche element they are looked on as dealing in – but some of this is due to the fact that some museums have had less than happy experiences in partnering with the military side on dual events. I’d like to make it clear that not all aviation people are against joint affairs and I personally would be happy to try taking my cockpit to a show if it was kept at my own place of abode – we need more exposure. Its impossible for me though some collectors do keep their cockpits privately at their homes, or locally in store – I can’t do that in London and days out of the office to fit in with museum opening times for pick-up & return would be involved also.

I was ‘approached’ a 2nd time recently about appearing at a military event next year after initially sending an initial e-mail explaining all the problems involved, but the 2nd inquiry was just a text message. I again replied to it by e-mail but was told that the sender ‘dosen’t do e-mails’ and that many people do such arrangements by text instead. I don’t I’m afraid and if I’m being asked to bring a sizeable display to a show I’d just expect as a courtesy, a reply with some specific info about it and how I would fit into the mix.

Exactly where I would be required to go to, would I be be parked up van-wise separately, what kind of opening/closing/access times would there be (if nothing was set in stone at this time) and where exactly would the cockpit be displayed, was there Public Liability insurance etc. A standard e-mail letter of introduction/directions held on file to cut and paste as part of the enquiry could easily be sent in a tailored reply and would be a big help.

I know we’re all busy and while receiving a firm booking from a simple text message with so little info on it to date would be a bonus to the sender, its asking a lot of the supplier and I’ve still had no response to my original e-mail which indicates that someone isn’t prepared to put the time into something that I am, which causes some concern. Good to hear the inquirer’s aviation comment though – can we build on this? “To bring new impetus to display of Aeronautical & Cockpits at a show next year – a way of bringing together the vehicle and wartime scene and flying collectors. There’s an incredible amount of interest in their side of things at the moment!”

I agree that many cockpits are not of WW2 era as jets are popular in general (and not as valuable), but insurance costs may be a consideration again – including allowance for domestic arrangements of course. I sorted out my own reasonable Liability Insurance last year when I took mine out for display and if worried about any potential claims, you can just let people look into the cockpit and take pics as they wish. Yes we need to appeal to a wider audience and not appear so ‘nichey’ and “The Cosby Show” sounds interesting.

I totally agree on your 2nd posting Bunsen, and would like to be more outward looking, attend more events that aren’t solely aviation etc but my own particular input would need a lot of planning and costs to consider and like many of us its fitting it in while paying le bills.

Having mentioned all this, I don’t see any reason why certain ‘mixed’ shows can’t be attended (if doable due to museum commitments) and in lieu of a cockpit some of us could certainly look at panel displays, memorabilia, instrumentation, photos etc to add to a Damyns Hall type show of the kind we do already at shows like ‘C.Fest’ and ‘V-Force Reunion’. ‘Time and finances dictate’ as David says, but if we can add our input to non-aviation shows where possible then its a good thing.

‘AEROBILIA’ 28 Mar & 14 Sept / Aeroboot Future Pt.2

To try to get down to areas that affect whether ‘Aerobilia’ or other boots are successful or not, these seem to be the areas of consideration, though others may be freely mooted:

1. How is the Boot being promoted aside from Website/Twitter/Facebook/Local newspaper links? And for how long in advance?
2. Is it being advertised by any posters/is it possible to do so? (I’ll design them for you if needed).
3. Admission pricing – can it be lowered further for ‘Aerobilia’ aeroboot events only, as an incentive?
4. Location of the Boot (The facilities are fine).
5. Encourage use of vehicle sharing where possible due to fuel costs (most people know this but any added attraction pointed out for a seller is vital due to the location and mileage involved in boots for many collectors, sellers & general public).
6. How much does an ad cost in major mags such as ‘Flypast’ & ‘Aeroplane’’?
7. What is the most effective ad size & format? Do ‘Flypast’ & ‘Aeroplane’ give reduced fees or free event ads for charity museums?
8. How long BEFORE an event should it be so promoted, IF a fee is payable AND affordable?
9. Given the reasonable pitch/table costs, what is actually AFFORDABLE advertising-wise, given the average dealer and public attendance for boots today, to make the event worthwhile for the museum?
10. Are there any issues re promotion of such an event and of any monies generated, that are forbidden or detrimental to its charitable status, or in relation to grants and other donation sources?
11. Are there any issues re promotional posters of the event with the local council/bye-laws? Would newsagents/shops, supermarkets etc sponsor a poster?
12. Would a Sunday be better or is Saturday the best day?
(Howard posted about this last year asking “Do people think that there is any benefit in scheduling Newark’s autumn 2012 event on the same weekend as a Military Collectors event that is being organised on the Newark Showground?” TWO RESPONSES WERE: “If both events were on the same day they might complement each other but not many buyers can afford overnight accommodation to attend both, any advantage to the sellers would be marginal.” Plus an overnight trip is a hard one to sell to the wife and too cold to camp in that weather. Its good to suggest things like this.
13. Check on conflicting events both locally or elsewhere in the country, of an aviation/military nature, OR of ANY event which might dissuade more potential public and dealer attendance – Tony mentioned that Goodwood Revival was also on during ‘Aerobilia II’.
14. Many people are still in a recession even if politicians try to convince us otherwise.
15. The untoward influence of eBay and other online outlets, with over-pricing commercial interests being copied by a percentage of the public.
16. Could the boot be promoted to military people also? These always seem well promoted – see ‘More Comment’ below. There are enough non-aviation items of a military nature (webbing, equipment, uniforms, vehicle spares, photos etc) to make it appealing to other collectors. Could it be ‘teamed ‘n’ themed’ with military collectors also, to get more stalls and attendance, with military vehicle draw attending, besides any cockpits?
17. Its only in the last 3 years or so that things have started notably dropping off, and for me the barometer is the C.Fest aeroboot. A way for more national/local publicity is needed for niche events.
18. Time of Year – a nightmare for museums and organisers everywhere. We all understand that our weather is generally lousy and with a finite window during a busy aviation calendar – sometimes clashes and weather bugs just occur.
19. Rising costs: a danger that stall/admission price increases from hereon stand to damage some shows further and dissuade attendance in the future.
20. Yes the golden days of plentiful kit are gone, but enough gets ‘turned over’ or sold on when someone tires of it or prices it affordably at boots, many dealers selling nothing as their prices are unaffordable. Then there are loft/garden shed clearers, besides sellers who just want a viable show. Plus eBay ‘Heads-Up’ sellers who post and then (understandably) withdraw an item after hooking a private offer to avoid fees, but enough serious collectors exist and affordable kit will always be sought after at aeroboots – where the vital face-to-face networking benefit is still as vital, if not more so, than it has ever been in the past.

More Comment
“Look at the advertising military events have, leaflets everywhere you go even at non-military events and websites and Facebook pages for the events-Essex Militaria one is well covered. Most people look on Google or Bing for forthcoming events so you must have a good web presence.” By itself this isn’t enough however.

I can occasionally do the laborious promo jpeg designs attached herewith to promote ‘Aerobilia’ and other boots online (they cover both events by the way) and in reviews, but ultimately the public and more die-hard aviation fans, collectors and sellers have to be brought through the door – the challenges for us are many but some direct discussion might help and perhaps some of us can speak to NAM on the day if its deemed useful after selling, besides posting our thoughts here, as that is the last main event of the year for many collectors and sellers.

I hope all this helps in some way but its taken over a day to design and write, so I’d better stop! Tony has confirmed what I have said on the crux of it all – yes more publicity for all events is somehow needed to encourage both buyers & sellers – but there is a “need to strike a balance between cost to stall holder/punter and to make it worthwhile.

On the day there were indeed some great bargains to be had – and as he has quoted Andy: “Use them or lose them”.

Beers, G1