panzerfeist1[USER=”28771″]TR1[/USER] +1
that is too good to be true as the 100 times lower background noise rofar. I better see new radars and among other new equipment being added besides the new engines before it hits mass production. Your post deserves every like or +1 possible.:very_drunk:
panzerfeist1I found an archive source that everyone here would love regarding Russia’s future in the electronics industry and how that would apply for their entire military industry. I only high lighted the quotes I found cool. So if anyone is interested here is a link that shows all the pdf files https://itech.aorti.ru/ and I was quoting from this magazine
“- In your opinion, what are
domestic prospects
radiophoton component base?
– The prospects are good. Opening the veil of our plans, I note that
we are going to actively apply
radio photonic technologies for deep modernization of existing
Radar and the creation of advanced radars. This will allow to realize
promising synthesis methods
radiation, reception and processing of radar signals (including
ultra wideband) based
new competitive domestic products: radiophotonic
super fast analog digital
converters (ADC), photon
digital processors, electron-optical signal generators,
optical delay lines, parallel optical supervisors, optical-electronic systems
antenna control and calibration.
Integrated application of photonics
in the AFAR equipment will provide a scientific and technological breakthrough in the field of
radar, communications and electronic warfare, will provide
Consumers have significant advantages over traditional
hardware.
Develop radiophotonics in JSC “RTI”
planned primarily at the base
production capacity
Connector Optics LLC and OJSC
“OKB-Planet”. The existing competencies of these enterprises make it possible to organize a complete
serial process chain
production of VIL and semiconductor modulators in microchip
performance.
As for semiconductor
modulators in microchip
performance, then in 2019 the research
work on this topic in which
OKB-Planeta OJSC is an industrial partner.
Within three to five years is possible
organization of the development, design and production of photonic
integrated circuits (FIS) both in packageless execution, and in the case.
The implementation of these plans will allow
JSC “RTI” take a leading position
in development and production
advanced domestic radio systems based on component
radiophotonic bases.
Replacing semiconductor components with radiophotonic components makes it possible to significantly simplify circuit solutions and functional
the construction of equipment, at times reducing its weight and size indicators
and power consumption.
The use of radiophotonics in radar systems provides
both quantitative and qualitative
advantages, including an increase in the order of the instantaneous width
signal spectrum, decrease by three
the order of transmission losses, reducing the weight and size of devices, a significant increase in resistance to electromagnetic pulses,
as well as minimizing interchannel
pickups.
– Shaping and processing radar signals in optical
range solves many problems
characteristic of electron propagation in copper conductors and in semiconductors, – explains Sergey
Saprykin. –
From here follow
the possibility of inertialess scanning sector review and real
adaptation to the noise-target environment, that is, the radar noise immunity increases. Huge frequency
range of radiophotonic radar allows
organize multi-frequency mode
work and the instantaneous signal bandwidth
in tens of gigahertz – to build a radar portrait of objects, to carry out spatial selection and effectively classify goals,
including stealth technology.
In addition to the complex of works on the creation of an integral radiophoton component base for radiolocation,
Interesting solutions can be obtained by applying radiophotonic technology to another new for NPK
work direction – radio engineering
terahertz range. The terahertz direction in NIIDAR has appeared recently, and the proven solutions in the world in engineering and circuit design
in this area is still very small.
– We started working on three
main areas where the previously inaccessible possibilities for the terahertz frequency range open up: radar with miniature
dimensions and superresolution
probing hazardous items
in inspection complexes as well
oncology diagnosis and treatment
diseases, explains Sergey Dmitrievich. – Bye hardware solutions
look not very elegant, but with the advent of radio photonics for the terahertz range, a technological breakthrough is possible, and we expect
among the first to enter the market
with new products.””
They admit they are 5-10 years behind western MMIC industry, 2019 they gave a time estimate of 3-5 years for
photonic
integrated circuits (FIS)
, 2020 they expect to have half of production be domestic instead of from imports for their semiconductor industry
Hell it looks they have plans for what looks like photon radar balloons to detect low altitude targets more far away by achieving more height. This **** would be awesome in my opinion to use with air defenses. it might be a target in the air but hopefully air defenses would provide coverage for it from being attacked. See attachment of what I mean.
“and object heights hc calculated by known
relations from the theory of radio communications (without
the effects of possible obstacles on the ground).
From the graphs it can be seen, for example, that with a height
facility 800 m line of sight
with increasing antenna height from 2 m to 1000 m
increases by 2 times (from 105 to 215 km),
and at an object height of 2 m, 12 times (from 10 to 120 km).
That is, the effect of lifting antennas in order to expand the serviced spatial zone is especially increased for ground and
at extremely low altitudes of objects.”
panzerfeist1There has been a lot of good information about the avionics industry regarding KRET’s 2017 and 2018 information and analysis catalogs both released on April. However the 2017 catalog was updated for pdf on july and the 2018 one was uploaded as a pdf on November. So I am assuming the 2019 information and analysis book might be out but has yet to be released on pdf. If anyone has information where I can obtain the book even if it is written in Russian(I will use google translate) let me know, even if the book has to be purchased online.
panzerfeist1Rall
Frequency is multiplied by photodetectors and dechirped by modulators. The problem with the frequency conversion is the loss of noise. Chinese solve this with a time delay technique. Does not work with conventional radars
panzerfeist1[USER=”77826″]XB-70[/USER] made a Quora answer link about it. https://qr.ae/TWNX3M. But I found a very simple explanation of how it works since it seems to have a dumbed down explanation for the general audience to understand.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-26665305
“Experts say photonic radar can overcome some of the limitations of current electronic systems. A laser produces a finely-tuned digital signature, which is converted into a radio frequency wave and transmitted from the radar antenna. The returning wave is also converted via laser into a digital signal free from “jitter”. Because the light is very precise, so is the radio frequency signal,” said Prof David Stupples, an expert on radar systems at City University in London. Currently we produce the carrier wave using electronics. But then you’ve got to transport it up to the radar head through expensive, heavy cabling – and this creates noise in the system. But if you use light – with fibre optics – it is cheaper, lighter and crucially – it has less interference. It’s very accurate.”
signature converted to RF, RF bounces off target, gets converted to laser into a digital signature free from jitter. I am assuming all the conventional radars on most aircrafts suffer from this noise interference of the returning signal, without the interference I am assuming the receiving signal is better heard on radars with this technology. I did not post the entire quora answer here due to its potential to make this thread explode with the fanboyism behind it and I had made that happen multiple times here :p
[USER=”77292″]LMFS[/USER] I did not notice your response, thanks.
panzerfeist1Random internet users using Open Source Intelligence to contact the Russian air force to perform an airstrike on the FSA camp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG1FWWX7ZPk
The US quit supporting the FSA until 2017 so I am wondering if any of those internet users in the US got in trouble or not. There were a lot of pissed off Turkish comments(they still support the FSA with Qatar) that day as well.
panzerfeist1”
How does it work, or maybe What frequency band does it use”
I can only draw the conclusion that in the field of photonics ultra-high SAR can be achieved since the chinese and russians have arrived in that conclusion but I am sorry that I cant give you a clear answer how it works. However I found some amazing sources I want to share here which I am sure no one was aware of regarding updates on Russia’s radar field of technology.
pg 17 of the book
http://www.niip.ru/upload/iblock/4c8…0b3fb41e86.pdf
“Using new photonics-based materials and componentry, KRET will master advanced production technologies of powerful photo-detectors and semiconductor laser modules.”
mikheeyev from another source explained above 70% transmitter efficiency with laser modules than supposed 30-40% of conventional radars resulting in the usage of less heat which is why I believed the chinese paper saying something about the same thing but I still could not find where that 100 times lower noise floor source came from.
pg 11 of this book http://www.promweekly.ru/archive/kret/KRET_4-2017.pdf
In the aircraft industry a role of composites is increasing, a sixth-generation aircraft will be possibly designed with use of the composite materials. On-board radio electronic equipment is being improved. Now the transmission power of the transceiver module of the active phased array antenna is 5–7 watts. After switching to the use of gallium nitride in microwave transmitters, the power can increase to 20 watts. Accordingly, the performance parameters of the radar will improve, and its dimensions will decrease. On-board computer technology is also being improved, despite the fact that we have
a rather difficult situation with the element base. In the microelectronics area we are still behind. The task was set to ensure import substitution, to switch to all domestic elements. We switch… losing in terms of dimensions.
pg 27 http://www.promweekly.ru/archive/kret/KRET_4-2018.pdf
RADIO-PHOTONIC TECHNOLOGIES IN ELECTRONIC WARFARE SYSTEMS In view of the above, much attention is given to the development of EW systems for the land, sea and airspace applications. EW systems cover almost all known types of physical fields – electromagnetic, including optoelectronic, and sound field. Extensive and continuous use of EW systems results in certain specific characteristics of their components, materials, technologies and general system approaches used in their design. One of the essential technological novelties currently being implemented in EW are the ultra-wide bands (UWB) operating within a frequency range of 10 to 100 GHz. Because of limited capabili
ties of methods and devices for identifying and
tracking the enemy’s RE operations in UWB, small-sized efficient EW systems currently
cannot be implemented and their development
is seriously hindered. This problem can be solved through using a radio-photonic technology that will provide
sufficient improvement of EW equipment combat potential and a steady continuous control of a practically unlimited frequency band. Today, the prospects of using radio-photonic devices are mostly related to engineering of
ultra-band active phased antenna arrays (APAA) for EW equipment. Engineering of phased antenna arrays (PAR) poses a sophisticated research and development problem. Solution to this problem lies in solving a wide range of tasks to achieve high sensitivity in the mode of receiving SHF signals emitted by UWB transmitters at an extremely low power. By quick and accurate control of coherent emitters system through changes in phase distribution, PAR can simultaneously trace multiple targets, search for the targets in the entire hemispherical space with automatic targets identifi-cation and tracking, direct the microwave radiation as an efficient jamming signal towards the most threatening and critical targets. The required power levels can be achieved due to multiple emitters distributed across the aperture. Among the existing PAR scanning methods, the time- domain method based on delay lines is preferred
pg 30
With the use of wide-band optical delay lines in the beam-forming and signals detection
channels, the noise immunity of EW system
receivers significantly increases, mainly due to the reduced amount of parasitic electric interference, and thus there’s a possibility of PAR real-time control using the following technologies: – transfer to IPCF and SHF wide-band
modulation of optical emittance; – quick-response photodetectors with high
detectable optical power (distributed p-i-n-photodiodes on photonic wells); – coherent quantum optics based on the
integrated photonic media, integrated silicone and GaAs electronic nanotechnologies.
I highly doubt anyone on this board or even including myself could understand what is being said between pg 27 and pg 30 but I just I want to show everyone that a source describing ROFARs EW capabilities does exist. However I am still lost trying to understand the jamming immunity claim of ROFAR anyone can go feel free reading this but try not to bash your head against the wall trying to understand it.
panzerfeist1“whether it’s a Quantum radar or an AESA with optical true time delay beamsteering,” Come on they are clearly not the same. Create a Quora account(long story short I basically made GarryA create an account there) than Jack Zhang will clearly explain to you they are both different. Quantum radars if I remember correctly and sorry for the poor explanation state the process of quantum entanglement by comparing 2 different photons(Jack Zhang could explain this better to you) However Mikheeyev made more than one statement that basically said ultra-high resolution is a feature and there is a 2014 or 2015 catalog that state powerful photodetectors are used for ROFAR and next thing you know the Chinese draw the same conclusion of ultra-high SAR with the use of photodetectors(shocker). Than they clearly talk about the process of multriplying and de-chirping signals without the loss of SNR as a benefits of a photonic radar.
I am sure the majority of people here have a basic agreement that ROFAR provides ultra-high resolution unless they want to argue that the Chinese researchers are just serving as KRET’s hypemen. But I will only hold off on ROFAR having the ability to hear better than conventional radars, and hold off on the jamming immunity claim if there is a source or some research paper I find that explain why photonics radars suffer less from interference than conventional radars. I know I said that was my last post, but I will make this my last post for you on this topic until another time.
panzerfeist1[USER=”77292″]LMFS[/USER]
Someone has had explained to me what that means by telling me this (quoting someone else)
“
SNR is signal to noise ratio, and it is measured in decibels. You take the strength of a desired signal (return signal from stealth aircraft), and compare it to the “noise floor”, as a ratio. A noisy room has a higher noise floor, so it makes it hard to hear something that would be easily heard in a sound-proof room, which has almost no noise. When they say they reduced the noise by 100 times, they “sound proofed” the radar better, which lowers the noise floor, and makes the same signal appear “louder” to the radar’s electronics. In this way, they can make it easier to “hear” a faint return signal from a stealth aircraft, compared to a conventional radar that has more noise to deal with.”
A reduction of 100 times or -20 decibels for the noise floor sounds like it could hear the noise clearer. If a Su-35 could see a .01m2 target or -20 decibels at 90kms the radio optical radar can hear the same noise even further because the noise floor is alot lower from interfering with the reflected signal.
I will hold off on this subject because I cant find the “supposed russian source” (but I have found other russian sources that have correlated with the articles statements) according to the Chinese that said the noise is 100 times lower than conventional radars. But from different research articles on the web it is safe to conclude ultra-high resolution is an advantage ROFAR has over AESA. However the conclusion of where they claim immunity to jamming is another strong claim makes it sound like a target that is equipped with AESA could have a hard time reducing the ROFAR radar’s tracking range, while the ROFAR in return will have less difficulty jamming an AESA target in return. I am making it sound like the reason for the wait is not the engine for the SU-57 but the radars themselves(if all of this is true). This will be my last post talking abput ROFAR until another time regarding features I might have missed.
panzerfeist1[USER=”77840″]GromOzekA[/USER]
I am assuming the source of the image came from their research paper. [FONT=”Lora”,Palatino,Times,”Times New Roman”,serif]https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-14306-y The RTI group showed a similiar image back in 2014.[/FONT]
“In the transmitter, the signal generation by photonic frequency multiplication has the potential to generate broadband LMF signals at a high central frequency. Although frequency quadrupling is adopted in the proposed radar, photonic frequency multiplication schemes with a multiplication factor as high as eighteen
can be applied to further increase the bandwidth and central frequency of the generated LFM signals. Similar with electrical frequency multipliers, a photonic frequency multiplier also causes signal degradations. Firstly, the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) may be degraded. In the experiment for target detection, in-band SNR of the electrical IF-LFM signal is measured to be 86 dB. After photonic frequency quadrupling, the in-band SNR measured after PD1 without electrical amplification is degraded to 72 dB. Secondly, the spurious property is degraded after frequency quadrupling. In the established system, the in-band spurious-free dynamic range (SFDR), which is the SNR when the in-band distortion equals to the noise floor, is measured to be 55 dBc and 49 dBc for the signal before and after frequency quadrupling, respectively. The signal degradations are due to the inherent signal deterioration in frequency multiplication as well as the signal deterioration in photonics-related operations such as optical-to-electrical conversion at a photodetector. In practice, these signal degradations would affect the radar detection range and accuracy.”
I do not want to feel like I am forcing to convince people here(apologies for doing that before on the EW systems for their aircrafts) that they are speaking about RCS detection being 100 times better because noise levels are 100 times lower than conventional radars. But this paragraph is an example about the signal to noise ratio dropping when the conversions begin than later on in the discussion they apply a photonic delay line technique to solve the noise loss and that such a concept cannot apply to regular radars without noise losses. I know you showed me the graph but in their discussion they are talking about target detection noise levels dropping because of the conversion factors than they say they have solved that issue with a technique therefore no losses of SNR with the conversion factor.
The entire article is talking about SNR being lossed than applying a solution achieving ultra-high resolution SAR at far ranges feasible because of a technique
“
which greatly improves the signal-to-noise ratio, and the theoretical detection distance for the stealth target. More than 500 kilometers!””
They are talking about improving the SNR.
[FONT=”Lora”,Palatino,Times,”Times New Roman”,serif]https://sciencing.com/how-to-calculate-signal-to-noise-ratio-13710251.h… “[/FONT]
Signal-to-noise ratio numbers are all about the strength of the desired signal compared to the unwanted noise. The larger the number, the more the desired signal “stands out” in comparison to the noise, which means a clearer transmission of better technical quality.”
“For better or worse, unwanted noise is a naturally occurring and inescapable part of signals in all electronic circuits and transmitted radio waves. Every circuit component, from transistors to resistors to the wiring, is made up of atoms that vibrate randomly in response to ambient temperature; the random vibrations produce electrical noise. In the air, radio transmissions pass through an environment full of electromagnetic interference (EMI) from power lines, industrial equipment, the sun and many other sources. An electronics engineer wants to know, of the signal her equipment receives, how much is noise and how much is desired information.”
Your are probably referring to circuit noise but when they are comparing conventional and photonic radars I think they were referring to SNR of transmitted radio waves. The Chinese su-57 source is right about the SAR and transmitter efficiency since they are indeed from Russian sources(which I have read) but I will find out if they are referring to electronic circuits or radio waves(regarding SNR) and which supposedly russian source they got that 100 times lower noise source from. Thanks for pointing that out.
panzerfeist1China is praising Russia’s ROFAR radar while bashing the aircraft itself. https://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/20…x6102967.shtml
Although I got a question regarding a certain paragraph from this source.
“The official propaganda of the Russians is generally the same: the detection distance is too far, the energy conversion efficiency is as high as 60%, the traditional radar is only 30%, and the noise is 100 times lower than the conventional radar, which greatly improves the signal-to-noise ratio, and the theoretical detection distance for the stealth target. More than 500 kilometers!”
I agree about the Ultra-high resolution SAR claim(mikheeyev, RTI Group photon radar model has the same claims as a certain Chinese research paper about the benefits of a photonic radar) and better performance against EW systems. But one thing is bothering me which I want someone here to clarify on. When they are saying the noise is 100 times lower than the conventional radar are they talking about RCS? RCS is basically decibels like .0001 is -40 dc and .001 is like -30 dc a measurement for noise. Are they saying can pick up lower stealth profile target (or lower noise target) better than a regular radar because they can pick up lower noise?
panzerfeist1“Your essentially putting a project on hold for several years while subsystems become obsolete, avionics and software will require updates that may not have been in the original roadmap”
plans of new EW modules to be put in,
plans of a new navigation system,
new computer put on a year ago.
fiber optics for body,
company that desigend side radars for the su-34 said 3 years ago they are working on a 5th gen version which for all we know can replace the side radars on the SU-57
talks of ROFAR seem possible since there are developement news updates on it.
The engine is not the only thing that is being updated.
Hopefully the Maks 2019 show will show something significant. But to me looking at the mig-35 and SU-57 numbers I think spending on anything airforce related is not their top priority. I might be wrong but looking at certain projects for example I believe the most money they will spend on is 1. air defenses. 2.Naval technology related. 3. ground force related things like T-14s, different ratnik gears like exoskeleton suits, robot tanks, etc. 4. air force related things like su-57s, mig-35s and drones. If anyone has a source on where most of their money is being allocated regarding military equipment please post it here but I am very sure air force related spending is at the bottom tier.
panzerfeist1[USER=”75448″]military noob[/USER]
are you sure thats not mixing up infrared with radar resolution. The side radar s pika-m give a resolution of 1-1.5 meters mapping mode at 300km and 30cm at observation mode for the su-34
I believe its radars are better than eots
panzerfeist1http://tass.com/defense/1057358
MOSCOW, May 7. /TASS/. Russia’s air defense systems Pantsir and Tor-M1 shot down 27 rockets the militants had fired at the Hmeymim base on May 6. Not a single shell hit the base, the Russian center for the reconciliation of conflicting parties in Syria told the media.
panzerfeist1| cellpadding: 0 | cellspacing: 0 |
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– with EPR of 2000 m² |
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– with EPR 200 m² |
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– with ESR 10 m² |
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up to 120-250 ** km (Sea mode) |
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up to 80-180 km * (low resolution) |
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up to 50-100 km * (medium resolution) |
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up to 30-50 ** km (high resolution)[/TD] |
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Supposed an/apg-81 SAR resolution
It seems SAR resolution is range dependent. Does anyone have information what range the F-35 achieved to get very high resolution or if there is a general rule of thumb of what range US military aircrafts in general take in measuring their SAR resolution?
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