Tiger_01A discussion is normal on a forum. The rules are good and clear.
But finally we got somewhere. There is no fully national product. For India it is much easier to get something so they do develop intresting products but the forces tend to importing. For Pakistan it is much more simplistic. They had no other chance so either importing Chinese or improving those and produce them internal. Now they get some weapons for fighting the war against terrorism but we all will see how long the weather stays clear. But I must say that military politics in that region are extremely confusing. And parties tend to move to emotions rather then reality. Telling that Brahmos is developed vy co-operation is silly if at the same time the person blames that Khaled is import. As usual biasssssssss and one side seems to have that a lot. Funny that it is allways the bigger party.
Tiger_01grey matters? personal?
I just copied BR forum and some other sources. I don’t add cause I don’t have to. It was a bomber. Being able to handle couple of fighters remind me of the Viatnam era Thunder… The good old days!
Tiger_01Pakistan rejects Indian objection to US arms sale
ISLAMABAD: A Foreign Office spokesman Saturday rejected as “unwarranted” India’s objection to sale of US weapons to Pakistan.
“It was incomprehensible that India, which has massive weaponisation and weapon acquisition programme, should object to Pakistan’s modest defence requirements,” the spokesman said in a statement here.
He was commenting on the remarks of the spokesman of the India’s External Affairs Ministry about sale of US weapons to Pakistan. Pakistan, he said, was ready to engage India purposefully on questions of strategic and conventional restraint. “We have made proposals for establishing a Stability and Strategic Restraint Regime in South Asia,” he added.
India had warned Friday that new American arms sales to Pakistan could harm improving New Delhi-Washington ties as well as a promising dialogue between the South Asia’s two nuclear rivals.
During talks in Washington, top Bush administration officials raised US concerns about Iran’s nuclear activities but Indian Foreign Secretary Shyam Saran said his government was “not really in a position to pass judgment.”
Saran met Secretary of State-designate Condoleezza Rice before she went into the hospital for minor surgery and also had meetings with Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage and Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, among others.
Washington is improving relations with the world’s largest democracy, attracted by its booming technology expertise and commercial market, but India’s nuclear weapons capability and ties with Iran are a serious concern.
A defence official said last month the administration would consult Congress on Pakistan’s nearly 15-year quest for advanced F-16 fighter aircraft. Under US law, Congress must approve such deals.
Saran said he was told the administration has not decided whether to go forward with the F-16 sale.
But he told a news briefing: “When I met the secretary of state-designate, I did raise our strong concerns at reports of impeding arms sales by the United States to Pakistan. “We pointed out the repercussion that such supplies could have on the ongoing India-Pakistan dialogue which was poised at a rather sensitive juncture.” Saran noted that during President George W Bush’s
first term of office US-India relations improved significantly.
Tiger_01US Congress Okays $300 m military aid to Pakistan in defence budget
(Updated at 1210 PST)
WASHINGTON: US Congress has approved a defence budget of $388 billion including a military aid to Pakistan worth $300 million.
Chairman, Appropriate Committee of the House, Bill Young told that the defence budget which included substantial military aids to Pakistan and Afghanistan was overwhelmingly carried over and approved by 344 votes as against opposing 51.
It is for the first time that a military aid of $300 million for Pakistan has been allocated in US budget in the wake of Pakistan playing significant role in war against terrorism.
It may be recalled that the US administration had recently informed the Congress about its plan of extending an aid package of $1.3 billion to Pakistan for its future requirement, which included the provision of spy-planes also.
Tiger_01Got this from PD and it is indeed on janes DW.
Pakistan hopes to finalise the purchase of 18 to 25 F-16 multirole fighter aircraft from the US during the first half of 2005, senior Pakistani officials have said. This follows the US Department of Defense notifying Congress on 15 November of its intention to sell Islamabad an unrelated Foreign MilitarySale 19-Nov-2004, last september at IDEAS 2004 lochheed martin & Ratheon show its AMRAAM 120C5 (see ideas2004 Threat) BVR missile , Sniper ex/ Pantera (see ideas2004 Threat) advance targeting pod, Longshot (see ideas2004 Threat) standoff weapons delivery kits for PAFs F-16s
( flight international report) Pakistan’s army is planning a major revamp of its helicopter fleet, including the purchase of new attack, scout and utility aircraft, to be funded primarily using aid from US government. bell helicopter is poised to be the main benefactor of the fleet renewal process, having sold AH-1 cobras, UH-1hueys and Bell 206B jet rangers to Pakistan before the imposition of a US arms ban that was lifted in 2001.
However, Sikorsky is also trying to break into the recently reopened market with its UH 60 Black Hawk utility and madical evacuation helicopter , and is expected to soon appoint a local agent to lead its sales campaign.
The overhaul will be made possible by the US government’s promise of 1.5 billion in military aid over the next five years in return for islamabad’s continued military support along the Afghan border. The army’s estimated $400 million share includes around $200 million for the lease of 26 bell 412s, $100 million for 40 new bell 407s, $60 million to acquire and refurbish 20 cobras drawn from the US excess inventory and $30 million to refurbish Pakistani 20 cobras, (Lockheed martin and Raytheon display Hawkeye XR(see ideas2004 Threat) target sight system see http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com new TOW missiles and hellfire 11 missile for cobras, (see ideas2004 Threat)
A further purchase 10 Eurocopter AS350 Ecureuils (see ideas2004 Threat) will be funded from pakistan’s national defence budget , with these to replace the army’s Aerospatial SA315 Lamas and SA316 Alouette llls ( Eurocopter display its Ecureuils helicopter with pakistani camuflagge at IDEAS 2004).
The $1.5 billion will also fund a Mid Life Update to airforce’s 32 Lockheed Martin f-16AB fighters and the purchase of 6 or 8 additional used maritime P3C Orion maritime petrol aircraft for the navy( Lockheed Martin display its Orion advance version MMA(see ideas2004 Threat) with pakistani colore scheme for PN’s Orion upgrade programme)
Pakistan is expected to spend a further $1. 5 -2 billion on military modernisation over the next five years, with the bulk of this on Chinese equipment, such as Chengdu JF-17 and K-8 trainer aircraft.
Tiger_01We know the the Marut is all India top project. Nothing wrong with it. But we know that the engines were not enough and certainly the project was finished when mr Kurt Tank left the team.
HF-24 Marut
The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited HF-24 Marut fighter-bomber was built in India, based on a design by Kurt Tank, famous for his Focke-Wulf aircraft built for Germany during WWII. The Marut featured a small swept wing and excellent maneuverability. It had limited combat potential because of the low engine power, and could barely reach supersonic speeds in level flight. The first prototype flew on June 17, 1961, with a total of 147 aircraft built, including 18 two-seat HF-24 Mk 1Ts.
Delay in availability of the HF-24 Marut for the ground attack fighter mission led, in 1966, to the Indian Air Force [IAF evaluating and the Government purchasing the Sukhoi Su-7BM, deliveries of which from the Soviet Union were to commence in March 1968. As the sixties translated to the seventies, the IAF consolidated its expansion plans, attaining its 45-squadron goal. Obsolescent equipment was steadily withdrawn to be succeeded by increasing numbers of HF-24s, MiG-21FLs and SU-7BMs.
Indian planners anticipate that any future war with Pakistan will be a high-intensity, short-duration affair (partly because of diplomatic intervention by third parties). Consequently, the IAF is developing a powerful tactical strike force to facilitate rapid advances by ground elements. Offensive air support will be furnished by MiG-23BN and MiG-27 squadrons, augmented by the MiG-21M Fishbed-J and Ajeet (an upgraded version of the British Gnat). As of the mid-1980s aging Hawker Hunter Mk 56 and Sukhoi Su-7 fighter-bombers were being removed from the inventory.
The HF-24 Marut served until 1985. The various development programmes to enhance the operational performance of the HF-24 Marut by HAL were abandoned for one reason or the other. The Government of India concluded an agreement with the Soviet Union for the MiG-23 variable-sweep fighter to meet the Tactical Air Strike Aircraft (TASA) requirement. Four squadrons, then flying the HF-24 and Sukhoi Su-7 were re-equipped with the MiG-23BN.
here BR:
The task of meeting the ASR was assigned to Hindustan Aircraft Limited (now HAL Bangalore). However, in 1955 no infrastructure capable of supporting the programme existed in India. And there was scant appreciation on the part of the government of the technological hurdles that would need to be surmounted. In response to an Indian invitation, Kurt Tank (of Focke-Wolf fame) and his assistant Engineer Mittelhuber, arrived in Bangalore in August 1956. As head of the design team it was Kurt Tank who would give the ASR shape and substance.
The design of the HF-24 had been based around the availability of the 8170 lbs. (3705 kg) afterburning Orpheus BOr 12 engine. Unfortunately, the British requirement for this powerplant was discarded and the Indian Govt. declined to underwrite its continued development. In retrospect, this was a very shortsighted decision on the part of the Indian Government.
Don’t wanna waste time in shelling the Marut cause it was a nice model and agile (agility is a strange thing for a bomber).
Tiger_01I agree with Indian73 that the original name should me mentionned but in that case we can change thousands of names of “Indian” products. Most famous is Brahmos but there are a lot more. I just read intresting report. This was the reason for a mod to close a topic cause I mentionned nuclear traffic between Iran and India. Here latest about this serious dangerous reality. Fun is that India which is more qualitive and quantitive expanding keeps running to other nations and asking not to sell to Pakistan. Maybe that is the reason why so many deals are kept secret and we have to talk about rumours. If India would act less … then we could talk about more details. Although it is inferior newspaper I still do attach value to their statements. Maybe it is hot air but maybe the reality is just that.
India Warns U.S. on Arms Sales to Pakistan
Fri Nov 19,10:54 PM ET
By Carol Giacomo, Diplomatic Correspondent
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – India warned on Friday that new American arms sales to Pakistan could harm improving New Delhi-Washington ties as well as a promising dialogue between the South Asia’s two nuclear rivals.
During talks in Washington, top Bush administration officials raised U.S. concerns about Iran’s nuclear activities but Indian Foreign Secretary Shyam Saran said his government was “not really in a position to pass judgment.”
Saran met Secretary of State-designate Condoleezza Rice (news – web sites) before she went into the hospital for minor surgery and also had meetings with Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, among others.
Washington is improving relations with the world’s largest democracy, attracted by its booming technology expertise and commercial market, but India’s nuclear weapons capability and ties with Iran are a serious concern.
A defense official said last month the administration would consult Congress on Pakistan’s nearly 15-year quest for advanced F-16 fighter aircraft. Under U.S. law, Congress must approve such deals.
Pakistan became a vital ally in the war on terrorism after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.
Saran said he was told the administration has not decided whether to go forward with the F-16 sale.
But he told a news briefing: “When I met the secretary of state-designate, I did raise our strong concerns at reports of impeding arms sales by the United States to Pakistan.
“We pointed out the repercussion that such supplies could have on the ongoing India-Pakistan dialogue which was poised at a rather sensitive juncture.”
India has began a cautious peace process with Pakistan and announced the withdrawal of some troops from the disputed region of Kashmir (news – web sites).
IMPACT ON RELATIONS
Saran noted that during President Bush (news – web sites)’s first term of office U.S.-India relations improved significantly.
“So in this context, the supply of sophisticated weaponry to Pakistan will inevitably impact on the positive sentiments and good will that has come to characterize U.S.-India relations,” he added.
U.S. officials assured Saran that Bush is committed to advancing relations with India. Washington supports the India-Pakistan dialogue and will continue to press Pakistan to end cross-border attacks, they told him.
The administration has accused Iran of vigorously pursuing a nuclear weapons program and the issue is an urgent challenge facing Bush as he begins a second term. Tehran insists it only wants nuclear technology to generate electricity.
Although Saran said his government has an impeccable record of protecting its nuclear technology, the United States recently imposed sanctions on two Indian scientists for alleged nuclear cooperation with Iran.
After New Delhi protested that the men did no wrong, Washington agreed to “review” the sanctions. Saran said there has been no decision.
He said U.S. officials voiced their concerns about Iran and he reiterated India’s view that Iran should adhere to its international commitments.
Tiger_01It was a positive remark towards the fact that I see Marut as Indian but probably enough to… Let us post intresting topics and not move away from India. If you really wanna know about why I think that India moved away from local products then you know how to pm. this is not a chat box. Thanks. Another latest report:
Dent in India’s security matrix: Navy chiefAdd to Clippings
RAJAT PANDIT
TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 20, 2004 01:01:08 PM ]
NEW DELHI: Describing the continuing delay in the project to indigenously manufacture submarines as “a big dent” in India’s “national security matrix”, Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash on Friday said he had strongly taken up this “top priority” matter with the government.
“Our western neighbour (Pakistan) has recently acquired the capability to manufacture the most modern (French Agosta-90B) submarines available today. I have conveyed this imbalance to the government in the most emphatic terms,” said Admiral Prakash, speaking exclusively to The Times of India .
It is “very unfortunate” that India has allowed the vital capability to build submarines, acquired in the late 1980s, to simply wither away. “I have briefed the defence minister (Pranab Mukherjee) and he shares our concerns,” he said.
The recent billion-dollar US arms bonanza for Pakistan, including eight more P-3C Orion aircraft and over 2,000 TOW-2A missiles, has also come at a wrong time for the Navy, he said.
“It’s a very disturbing development. Although they (Pakistan) are saying the Orions will be helpful in surveillance on the Afghan border, they are maritime reconnaissance aircraft meant for use over the sea. Moreover, being missile-equipped, the Orions have offensive capabilities as well,” said the Navy chief.
The Navy, on its part, is very keen to bolster its “degraded” long-range reconnaissance capabilities by upgrading its present fleet of IL-38 and TU-142 aircraft, as also acquiring new aircraft like the Orions.
As for the underwater fleet, the Navy is making do with only 16 ageing diesel-electric submarines at present. It wants the government to finalise the $2-billion French Scorpene project — which involves construction of six submarines at Mazagaon Docks — promptly.
“Once we start this project, which is ready in all aspects, we will be able to design and build our own submarines entirely or with minimal help from outside sources,” said Admiral Prakash, who is firmly pushing for “indigenous” capabilities.
The government’s caution in coming to a final decision about the Scorpene project is “understandable” since it involves a huge outlay of money. “Although we have done our homework well and it has received full scrutiny at all levels of the government, there may be competing claims,” he said.
Tiger_01IMF restrictions?
Tiger_01Indeed BS. I apologize. With 300 mig21 crashed it is indeed adding squadrons.
Tiger_01The usual Indian reaction to any military deal with Pakistan even if it us unreal. About crucial steps in talks with Pakistan. India agrees for talks but doesn’t want to change anything. Talking about flexibility. But what more suprises me is that US is not openly saying no. Why? Add that Sweden is maybe engaging Gripen. I don’t understand what is reality. What will US offer to India to make it even?
No decision yet on F-16s for Pakistan: US
S Rajagopalan
Washington, November 20
The United States has informed India that it has taken no decision “so far” on Pakistan’s long-pending request for F-16 fighter jets.[So it is an officially a request]
The issue was raised by Foreign secretary Shyam Saran at a meeting here with secretary of state-designate Condoleezza Rice, during which he conveyed India’s strong concern over the US’s impending $ 1.2 billion arms sale to Pakistan. [Huge indeed. But moslty to eradicate terrorism.]
Rice gave no indication of any reconsideration of the package, now before US Congress, but sought to stress that President George W Bush was personally committed to taking the US-India relations forward. [Strange secrecy.]
There has been renewed media speculation lately that the US is actively considering the supply of F-16s to Pakistan. An unnamed Pentagon official had been quoted last month as saying that Congress would be consulted on the issue. [Decades of rumours.]
Speaking to reporters after his meetings with Rice and other top officials, Saran said that he raised both the arms package and F-16 issues. “I pointed out the repercussions such supplies could have on the ongoing India-Pakistan dialogue, which is poised at a rather sensitive juncture,” he said. [Read latest articles about India being well armed. India not willing to discuss with third party. India not willing to change anything. India not willing to let kashmiri leaders to communicate with others. I doubt that Pakistani side is going to be dangerous if they get a few more planes.]
Rice came up with the assurance that the US remained very supportive of the Indo-Pak dialogue, and that it would continue to take up New Delhi’s concerns about cross-border terrorism with Islamabad. [Moving away from subject.]
On the F-16s issue, she did not go beyond the standard formulation that no decision has been taken so far on this subject. Asked if this did not mean that the subject was very much on the table, Saran said he would not interpret it thus.
Apart from Rice, Saran held meetings with Deputy Secretary Richard Armitage, Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, Under Secretary of State Mark Grossman, Under Secretary of State for Economic Affairs Alan Larson and Under Secretary of Commerce Kenneth Juster. [Mr Wolfowitz and president Shaukat from Pakistan are close friends. I do think that Pakistani military leader Musharraf has worked close with the US on controlling Asia and eradicating terrorism.]
Saran said that at all these interactions, he could discern a “continuing strong commitment” to strengthen and expand US-India relations. He expressed confidence that many initiatives launched during the first Bush term will be carried forward “with even greater vigour in the second term”.
At the US-India High Technology Cooperation Group’s meeting, both sides discussed “practical steps” to reduce the barriers to bilateral high technology trade while enhancing security of such trade. Both Saran and Juster expressed satisfaction with the outcome of the talks.
Tiger_01It happened with the Marut. Now again with Hawk. And same seems to happen with LCA if they start looking for 125 planes for replacing mig21. I think the local products do have enough potential but somehow the forces tend to look for foreign products only.
Tiger_01Here something I read in Pakdef:
Muhammad Hasan
Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 264
Re: PAF News – 2004 : Nov – Dec
——————————————————————————–
O.K. Friends, the news is that Sweden is sending its ERIEYE AEW&C and the JAS-39 GRIPPEN fighters to Pakistan next month for testing. Lets see what happens. The Swedish claims that 40 JAS-39 Grippens with the combination of ERIEYE AWE&Cs can perform the same defensive job which currently 240 F-7s and Mirages are performing for the PAF.
__________________
Muhammad Hasan.
I have no data whether it is reality. But I do agree with Saab of they wanna show that Erieye and 40 Gripen are potent defence. Surely better then all those PG/P/Mirages. But it does cost a lot more. If the news is correct then I wonder which BVR is connected to the testing.
Tiger_01Oops. I have to push that ignore button again. 😀
Tiger_01About that fc1 cockpit posted above. It looks very neat. What I am suprised about is that there are report that PAF is only intrested in airdefence variant of the fc1. Somehow strange to see latest pics of fc1 with dumb bombs.
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