FlubbaWanshan getting in the edits:)
Yeah i’ve read the JCTS article it’s interesting, i think for a navy of our size and an armed forces of our size having a whole different ship seems a bit much. Although i will admit i like the Mistral class, more because it’s also a big Helo carrier and does more than just hospital care which we would need only every so often. Deleting the vehicle deck on the Mistral would allow a lot more room for a much larger hospital while still allwoing space for a hangar and well dock. The well dock would still be handy for small boats or just transporting landing craft not to mention ideal for Humanitarian evacuations. Have a look at this to see what im getting at: http://sobchak.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/ship_mistral_class_cutaway1.gif
The best choice i can see for a large separate ship is by using the MARS hull design and building that into a Hospital Ship, the mercy class after all are converted tankers.
Oh! and just to be cheeky:) If i got my way and the C2 was Absalon flex deck and all she could also have a smaller hospital facility so the medical facilities would be distributed amongst the fleet. Therefore the injured can be stabilised on the more numerous C2’s and the sent to the JCTS for further and greater help, a distributed network so help is always much closer. It would also allow better care to be given when there is no hospital ship in a deployment or when it is too far away and the casualty needs immediate help. Yeah yeah im bonkers and it’s a cheap shot but i like Absalon plain and simple and it’s another thing that the ship could do.
FlubbaSimple answer Yes. The Bay class however are smaller not as deep or as broad so not really an ideal candidate, there would be no room for a large hangar as well as a Hospital although we were meant to get 2 Hospital ships. (Nice one New Liebour) My choice would be an almost off the shelf Mistral class, it has the flight deck a large one at that, it has a hangar and it has a decent hospital facility which could be expanded by deleting the vehicle deck. In the bigger picture you could buy 2 Mistral class for around 600mln Euros and these could replace Ocean and Argus although it means buying a proven off the shelf ship that is French so nope never gonna happen.
If your a Euro Zombie then buying the Mistral class would also be a massive help to the EU battlegroup’s idea as we would have 5 large LPH/Command ships in the EU that could be used to deploy them anywhere. Commonality is a bonus although we would obviously modify it to fit our own electronics etc.
(Side not related note: I would like 3 Mistral class, 1 to replace Argus and this one would have no vehicle deck but a larger hospital. 1 to replace Ocean and another to replace the Ark in her secondary LPH role. It looks like the French may end up with 4 of them when Jeanne d’Arc retires)
FlubbaWhat you say is the truth. Many British ships are flagged elsewhere but im pretty sure if the owners if they were British would consider loaning the MoD the ship in return for insurance they will get the ship back in good nick with a wad of cash. I think in a serious war that directly affects the UK then i would expect some nice armed men to appear and requisition the vessel.
Cruise ships is an intresting one as most modern Cruise Ships are port hoppers not proper liners like the Canberra designed for long ocean crossings. I think there would be major problems with dragging along a modern cruise ship to somewhere like the South Atlantic as they are not designed to stay at sea. When the weather gets rough they seek shelter so i doubt they would be of much use.
I don’t think the need for them would be that pressing as you could airlift most of your people closer to theatre and transfer them to Vessels like the JHSV. Fair enough we don’t have any but it’s an idea buy a load of them and run them in commercial service. I hope we would have some behind the scenes deals with some shipping companies but then again we are talking about the MoD.
Swerve, yeah fair point we did have hull’s but compared to what we have currently they are miles apart. I’ve always though we could have done with more Bay class as we were meant to get 6 of them not 4, many people online point to them being the most relevant ships in a modern navy.
FlubbaYup, 6 point class that are avaliable when needed also there are the 4 Bay class and the 2 Albion class providing the bulk of the UK’s amphib capability. Compared to 1982 this is a massive leap in capability as we only had 2 amphibs and they were not that great and there were also the larger LST’s not much but that was not the naval mission in the cold war. We now also have HMS Ocean which we did not have back in 1982, this one ship alone with helo’s would be very handy as you then have a proper helo carrier for the marines and special forces to work with.
FlubbaBasically as others have pointed out there aint really anyway to protect against RPG’s they are after all anti-tank weapons. The Fenestron tail rotor is also much more susceptible to damage and is no where near as quick and simple to repair hence why we dont see battlefield helicopters flying around with them. I suspect the same might be true with NOTAR hence why no battlefield helicopters use them.
Ye good old tail rotor is a proven technology that is easier, cheaper and quicker to repair which are all very important for military uses, other options may be more efficent etc but military helicopters get much less use so fuel use is not a huge thought.
I also watched Black Hawk down the other night, although it was on the tele i watched it online. Basically if the Blackhawks had proper gunship support and less restrictive rules of engagement then things would have been much better mainly as the blokes running around with RPG’s could have been taken out. But hey at least the film is based on a true event and has truth in it rather than the usuall action movie, maybe would could have one about the RM’s riding the Apache??
FlubbaAhhh! Canberra yeah i know what she was etc and what she done, i was wondering wtf so googled for Camberra and cambria so i got Royal Mail Ships etc as well as ferries.
We don’t really need a troopship tbh, most of the time we can fly our people to where they need to be which has many advantages. Furthermore the RN at least has a strong amphib force to transport men directly into the area of operations and cruise ships and car ferries could still be nicked if needed, although the UK Merchant fleet has shrunk since 1982.
FlubbaSorry Swerve i should have worded that better, i know that the RFA do not technically have to follow IMO regulations as they are a Government owned fleet. They could keep working for a few years more and then get disposed of however if Labour/ whoever is next, wish to follow the IMO regulations they will need to get a move on to replace the single hulled members of the RFA fleet.
Random Question: was the Cambria/Cambrea a Sealink ferry that was taken up from trade if so what did she do can you help me find out some more. I’ll do the usuall Google but looking around atm there aint much.
FlubbaI agree with Stevo here but i can see where people are coming from the RN is being neglected and forgotten about thanks to the UK’s sea blindness. The CVF could still be cancelled although it would cost Votes, Jobs and last of all money, it looks like it might survive and i hope it does.
C1 and C2 will happen although i think they will be very late into service and available in very few numbers adding more pressure to the creaking RN. Ideally they should have a fair idea of some fixed design concepts, costs and build schedules ready to go as soon as it can happen. In my opinion they need to be built right on the back of the CVF blocks being finished so that there is no delay, hesitation in managment etc.
In regards to MARS i would personally say that it is in a difficult place, the current ships can work on the main reason for getting shot of them is IMO regulations. The best place to build them is Korea and if this can be accepted politically then it will be far more fiscally prudent therefore more likely to happen. However it may be screwed around with by politicians to increase the work done in the UK which would increase costs and delays, best practice would be as much done in Korea as possible and the UK content being the Military specific equipment.
Argus i think will and should be rolled into the same program as the LPH(R), an example would be the Mistral class this is both an LPH and has a decent hospital it also is very cheap to build and operate. The Juan Carlos 1 class would also fill the LPH role although it would maybe look to much like a mini-carrier so is riskier politically, imagine the RN asking for 2 of them. My vote would be for at least 2 maybe 3 Mistral derivatives as they would do the job and be more politically possible as well as slightly cheaper. The Ability to operate F-35B is not vital as Ocean nor Argus operate Harrier, giving the capability or having it would make the CVF look very pointless. Although in reality this is likely to be kicked far to the right in favour of more frigates and other items to keep the yards ticking over.
RFA Diligence is a very intresting case as not many naval forces operate dedicated repair ships although some do have Ocean tugs that could help ships in trouble. My personal view is that we should keep a repair ship in operation as Diligence has proved to be a handy asset in the Gulf and in GW1 was vital in helping repair coalition warships. Furthermore Diligence has proved to be more than a repair ship as she has been used as a mothership supporting upto 4 minesweepers. The options for a new ship would either be a commercial vessel bought and converted or a new vessel, the latter would be my option as the ship could be built with aviation facilities and other military features, im not saying a whole new ship design but one based on a commercial design. One option would be a modified Bay class hull with either a smaller dock or no dock, this should help keep costs down.
FlubbaYeah the numbers don’t really matter a great deal. Ooof! a whole 10 C1’s and 8 C2’s the MoD is a big spender (sarcasm), i doubt it will happen though i can see maximum 8 each or maybe 6 C1 and 8 C2. Ideally i would like 8-10 C1 and 12 C2 as it allows for all the most important allied patrol posts to be filled.
Politics Warning>>>>>>> I don’t hold much hope either way though as the Tories if they win will inherit a country that is broken economically, financially, socially and mentally. I dont think most peope realise how much damage has been done there is going to be a £90,000,000,000 hole in the annual budget so far what the tories have said will save at most £7billion a year and people are already having a moan about it. Labour or the Lib Dems have not said a word yet apart from labour said it basically wants to spend more money??. I am currently not a supporter of any of the main parties as they are all lying through the few teeth they have left although the Tories would be the Top of my list and Labour the bottom.
FlubbaAhhh! ok just me with a lack of humour etc, typical MoD trying to pinch some pennies hopefully it somehow bites them in the arrse. Ideally since we have so few Phalanx mounts we would replace them with something else for when we get all the new frigates as i would like both C1 and C2 to have CIWS’s. If the RN is very very very very lucky they might just get 16 C1/C2 so for that you need 32 CIWS mounts add into that all the larger fleet units Carriers etc then numbers should justify getting a more modern system. If we need a land based system as well which i think we do then the 35mm Millenium Gun should cover both sea and land based operations.
I still prefer gun based systems for last ditch defense as they can also be used against small boat threats and are a tad faster and easier to reload. A simple upgrade route would be to change to Sea Ram which has commonality with Phalanx.
FlubbaKev i doubt they deployed all the Phalanx mounts on trailers to Afghanistan, there will still be a few hopefully somewhere. There are currently 5 T42 in service with another in extended readiness, there are 2 of the batch 2’s that got the chop this year so thats 4 mounts released. There was a few that got binned last year so thats a few more mounts and they are the mounts that would have been shipped to Afghanistan i would hope.
FlubbaAhh! fair enough does he have any pics of the interior as i’ve always wondered about the ship since it is all shiny and new, the only other thing i can find of the interior is the short tour video by BAE. In all seriousness though the Aster missiles really should be fitted now rather than next year or later. Are there actually any Harpoon launchers kicking about that could be installed on the T45’s? if not maybe some of the newer Harpoons could be acquired or we could start phasing in a new system.
One thing i would like to see fitted and that is possible in a very short time is Phalanx as they should be coming off the decommisioned T42’s and some of the T42’s have already been binned so there will be mounts in storage somewhere. The T45 is fitted to accept the Phalanx and i would guess it is also partly integrated with the combat management system.
FlubbaYeah the RN wanted the MK41 for TLAM but i also suspect that another reason is that they could co-develop new missiles with the USN and work together. There is room for more VLS cells but i think the launchers would maybe be rotated and more launchers added in behind them, this would require less work than essentially removing the whole deckhouse.
FlubbaAha! you know how there is a gap between the rows of cells on the T45 i think you might have just given me the reason for this gap. The T45 was designed to take either the Mk41 or the Sylver and im pretty sure the RN wanted the Mk41 as it is more flexible and in use with more of it’s freinds. So it’s most likely wider and i would guess this is maybe down to the exhaust vent along the middle, the sylver launchers use a composite exhaust chamber with a newer design no doubt taking up less space whereas the Mk41 uses and older design.
Or i could be wrong on that and it’s wider if you are looking at it top down rather than side on.
Hmmm! just done a google to have a close look at some pics, the exhaust vent seems smaller on the Mk41 now:|
FlubbaBut then you need to mount expensive, manpower intensive to maintain and heavy illuminators high up in the superstructure.
Fair enough point but we already have illuminators on the T23 and it can’t be that bad having them again on a new ship. Or we could always push for the Active ESSM seeker which would solve the problem although then it might cost more but it would be a more effective system in my opinion.
A43 is 5.4 metres overall height, but I was actually referring to the width, where the difference is significant.
How much is significant?
What helicopter would you want to operate from C1, C2 and C3. I take it C1 is going to be a pure ASW ship and C2 multirole?
I personally would like to see both the C1 and C2 being able to support 2 Merlin sized helicopters, for the C1 these would naturally be sub hunting HM1 Merlins. For the C2* the Merlins could be either to allow the C2 to be very flexible which is more or less it’s defined. When doing warfighting duties it could carry more HM1’s to help defend the task group and when doing other op’s it could carry HC3’s or whatever will replace junglies, to allow the transport of troops and utility work. The C3 should as i have said plenty of times before in my opinion have a hangar and facilities for a FLynx but i think it should also carry something like the Scan Eagle UAV.
In respect to the RN Helicopter fleet i would be suprised if the Junglies replacement is under RN control or even RN helicopters, the reason for this is the Marines are now seen as part of the Army by the bean counters. Ideally if they were replaced they would be marinised HC3’s as when deployed with the fleet it would save in logistics. If this did happen the RN would have 2 Helo fleets Merlin’s and Flynx, commonality would be a major factor and there is not many choices for the Junglie replacements anyway.
AFAIK it’s the standard mode of operation for long-range anti-aircraft missiles nowadays.
You are quite correct long range missiles climb and follow a ballistic trajectory.
That figure is worked out from the overall project costs, in the same respect Flynx costs £30m/unit and Typhoon costs £90m/unit (obviously they don’t but the press have a habbit of making things as seem 3 times as worse as they actually are)
You are correct many of the prices reported by the press are simply worked out by dividing the total program cost by the units acquired and since we buy so few units it always is expensive.
F35b im pretty sure the HM1 Merlin is around the mid £30mln’s mark and the HC3 below £20mln when you are talking about how much one is off the line not counting R&D etc.
* Most of you know what my C2 choice is and that is Absalon, since there is Joint Warrior 09 taking place off the coast Absalon was in Glasgow and i went to have a wee look. Also her Merlins have been flying about a bit early in the morning so i dont think the Danish have changed their clocks to GMT.
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