FlubbaRing Up Incat and tell them you want an RO-RO catamaran capable of handling vehicles with the ground pressure, length and width of an M1A1 SEP MBT.
Hmm! but how will it land an Abrams tank onto a beach etc? I think it would be excellent for moving things around. From what i understand these LCT’s are used for helping out small island communities after disasters etc so water will be shallow and ports either damaged or non-existent.
I think following the French to see what they replace BATRAL’s with would not be a half bad idea as people have mentioned. Im also a supporter of the BMT Caimen 200 which would seem to be ideal with some modifications such as a Heli deck which should not be a problem. It already has some advantages notably speed and ease of construction which BMT have worked on. The design is also large enough to carry MBT’s and major equipment such as Bulldozers etc which are handy for humanitarian operations. A bonus of the optimization for speed is that the hull has better seakeeping qualities than a normal LCT.
FlubbaThanks Ja, I’ve done some reading and if all is to be believed then the CEA active arrays should be better than the SPY-1 on the Hobart class if they are scaled up. Hopefully this technology really takes off and it’s as good as it says if so it should be selling but as people have said on forums after a quick google why have people not been buying it?
Yeah i realise that FREMM is big enough, i would want it for the RAN as it would do the job well enough. You are correct there is no proven 7000 ton ASW platform and the routes to get to that would need more cash and have higher risk. The main problem i see with the ASW FREMM is the systems as most things would need replaced with American/Australian kit and the Aussies would want the hull made locally which i dont think the French or the Italians would be happy with. Sure they won a large export order but it would contain little EU content and the hulls would be built abroad so they would only get cash for the design and some other areas.
Im guessing your talking about the specific ship ‘Cristobal Colón (F105)’? Is she getting fitted with a TAS if so and i’ve got this right then the problem has an answer. Build the F100 hull with the TAS and 2 choppers and swap Aegis for CEAFAR etc. I would bet that i’ve got this wrong however.
Stan that is what i was thinking as well what they are asking for ignoring the size issue is a T23 with more choppers. Same capabilities in regards to Sub hunting and AAW.
Flubbaand strategic bombers…. carriers are great for the long game but when you need instant boom booms on targets the yanks have shown that keeping B52s and building B1 and B2 was a good decision.
In both Gulf wars and now in afghan who can say that we couldn’t have very usefully used a squadron or two of “vulcans”. The stand off deterrent value is immense. In the summer of 1990 half a dozen bombers sent to cyprus or BIOT would have done the job at much less cost of a wing of Tornados and all its neccesaries sent to saudi. Today in afghan CAS supplied from 24 hour bomber coverage would be darn useful.
Yes strategic bombers would be handy but carriers are much more more useful for other things as well. Although i would like my big 4000nm strike radius UCAV that i’ve been banging on about elsewhere. They can be handy but they need basing rights in most places even with bases in Cyprus etc how politically acceptable is it to use them for strikes on other nations. I would prefer carriers, SSGN’s and then bombers for global strike but thats just me.
Mr Brown is a moron and so is any other party going along with this line, they will say 3 and then they will cancel the whole thing after they discover we cant do CASD with three subs. Reducing the UK’s warhead stockpile further is highly flawed IMHO. We currently have around 180 warheads total, France around 300, China maybe 1000, india and pakistan a few hundred each and then Russia and the USA with thousands. We should keep our numbers the way they are until other nations e.g. France have reduced to match us in numbers. The USA and Russia both have around 2,200 warheads deployed at one time well thats what they are allowed IIRC. I would only reduce our stockpile further once they are at 1000 each then i would drop to 100 and then none.
The idea that the dropping of one sub for anything other than cost is false in my opinion. It is purely about cost but even that is misguided in it’s concept the money saved will be paltry in the grand scheme of things and all it achieves is to weaken our defense and our standing in the world. I wonder if any of the political parties have thought this through or even asked anyone in the silent service about what this will mean? i doubt it.
I can only hope that people see it for what it is pure lies and misdirection.
FlubbaYeah i should have thought about that first point before hammering away on the keyboard :o. One thing i’ve wondered about with the Armidales is that the crew stated on Wiki is 21 but im guessing they will generally have more people on board, how many spare bunks are there. I ask as once you put some men in each RHIB the crew left is pretty small not accounting for people on watch during the night. I would guess most of the time however they only use one RHIB for saying hello to fishermen etc. Just wondering:)
There is not much out on the interweb about the FSC program we can only really have educated guesses at what is needed/wanted and what we could get.
I see the sense in Australia building it’s own ships but with tankers i think the money saved in a foreign build could be huge. Building classes of vessel that keep shipyards working is the best idea for home yards whereas one or two ship classes are better built abroad. Unless of course your home industry can do it for a similar price point. Keeping industries like shipbuilding running is tough as it requires them to either be commercially successful or for the nation to maintain a shipbuilding tempo for it’s naval forces.
Why others dont is politics and the lack of will to run large programs over time, for instance in the UK we could afford IMHO to produce more T45’s and then run out a line of ASW configured ships, This could save quite a lot of cash in the long term while still buying votes.
One new Auxiliary bah thats a bit unlucky, i would say then either an enlarged Berlin class to allow more fuel bunkerage or the Aegir 18R. An additional note is that Australia has most of it’s intrests quite close to home so it only really needs auxiliaries for the odd deployment further from home.
Woot new thread i’ll be sure to post back.
FlubbaSwerve i agree completely but it’s not me saying i want a 7000 ton ASW platform it’s the RAN. I think that is going to be a massive ship all that is really needed is a smaller FREMM size frigate that would do the job just as well. Even when they need an open ocean ASW platform a smaller ship with a smart design should still be able to do the job. A much modernised T23 would technically be able to do the Job. The thing thats on my mind is the fact that Australia might end up hunting subs within the Northen island chains which means their ships will be operating under possibly unfreindly skies closer to shore. While this just be me being a nutter it seems the most likely place that they will be needed to do sub hunting so a decent AAW fit i think will be needed.
The idea of giving Navantia all the work is daft i know but if they do a great Job and what they propose has it’s pros then i think it may be a decent idea from cost/risk and commonality perspectives.
Ja, you have a fair point the F125 could still be a contender if it sticks closely enough to the MEKO ideology but even then it’s still not as ideal. Little commonality and an expensive hull that was not designed for the job of sub hunting, while it would be ideal for peacetime duties i dont see the RAN needing a frigate to deploy that far from home as they have lots of close neighbours (Dont watch the show but it’s ok), so i dont think that part of the design would stand them in good stead.
Thanks:), I maybe have a better understanding of the region as i have family that live in Oz and have an intrest in following developments in the region. Basically with all the close and narrow waterways that can be deep with lots of noise, coupled with the amount of trade that passes through the region. Then add in the fact that everyone within 1000nm is building or acquiring new submarines just makes it obvious where the RAN ASW experts will be spending most of their time. People seem to forget how good an SSK operating environment the area makes and with modern SSK’s that are quiet and can loiter for weeks submerged then naval forces really need to be on the ball.
The type of ship that is needed is going to be one that has a large aviation component as the helicopter is one of the best enablers in the littoral, this will become more important with evolving UAV technology the ability to carry more than one helicopter is vital IMHO.
Nice to seem the considering TLAM and i hope they end up getting it tbh as it would allow them to pack some punch rather than relying upon the RAAF who i feel will be stretched to help. I’ll need to do some homework on CEAFAR and CEAmount im guessing one is a search radar and the other a targeting radar? 😐
You are very much correct the C1 has no design planned yet and there is no political will to get the program running. With finances they way they are as well as sea blindness in every party the i dount it will be a very happy story. The F100 derivative i feel would offer the lowest risk with some good cost advantages. However it’s aviation capability is lacking somewhat and it’s not really a hull designed or intended for ASW, what i mean by that is that the hull is not designed for low speed towing of a large array nor does it have electric propulsion for best results.
Navantia should be able to offer some great Auxiliary designs and they should have the incentive to offer a good price as it would mean more work and would also built a relationship between them and the RAN. Is there shipyards in Australia that could handle building large simple ships like Auxiliaries or are they mostly suited for other projects?
FlubbaI think the best route for finding a patrol vessel would be to have an International competition and give out some detailed information on what is needed and ask people what they have. People like VT would have some advantage thanks to the recent orders they have been won. I would hope that they could organise a visit to the Trinidad and Tobago OPV’s and allow the RAN to have a good look round to decide if it would suit their needs, im sure it will. Other contenders could do the same allowing the RAN to see and feel before they commit any cash to the project.
The C1 images you show are one of the few sets of images out there, that vessel in particular seems suited to UAV’s as the large hangar would allow storage of your normal manned helicopter while allowing additional UAV’s to be stored in the smaller side hangars. As you have pointed out that is one of the stated requirements for the design and will be vital in future due to the emerging UAV technology. Although the hull itself is unproven and costs unknown which would cause an issue for the bean counters it should prove to be an excellent design.
The Royal Navy and RFA are pretty much in the bin at the current time due to the idiots in power and possibly those waiting in the wings to be elected. When times were good the Government kept borrowing money and kept spending whereas in Australia the Government paid off debts and sorted out it’s finances. I think however if and when the RFA do get new tankers ordered they will come from South Korea which should mean that they are on time and on cost. If Australia and New Zealand joined the order (if they didn’t mind the ships being built abroad) then the combined order should help lower costs as many things would be common amongst the fleet, it would also be more attractive for the yards to bid on as orders are usually for more than a few vessels when korean yards are concerned.
You are correct that buying a common design would be ideal and it has been done many times in the past making it more feasible that it will happen again, common support infrastucture would be ideal to make best use of available funds and expertise in both nations.
The Berlin class are like mini T-AKE’s good point and they would be essential for the deployment of an LHD. My concern with the Berlin class is that they don’t carry that much fuel and i doubt it would be enough for an LHD and escorts. So i think 2 Berlin class and some larger tankers (maybe 4)would be needed for the RAN at least in the future to support the LHD’s. These new ships would allow the RAN to better support deployments in it’s region and abroad as well as supporting allied nations in the region on joint deployments. Thats just my thoughts on that and i might be totally off, I’ve also posted on the new thread.
FlubbaIm with Obi Wan Russell here carriers are the best way to project air power when needed as you dont have to grovel to some random nation to allow you basing rights which they could pull at any point. Carriers allow you to have a mobile airbase that you can move to almost anywhere you want to do it’s job without worry of people whipping away basing rights.
It is also easier to defend in ways as you can steam around at 18 knots constantly making you hard to find and hit. I would also argue that it is easier to re-supply a carrier than it is to re-supply a major land base. Fuel can be carried and delivered directly via Auxiliaries so can all manner of stores, whereas with a land base most soilds would need to be flown in and a fuel supply secured locally which is difficult considering the volumes and quality needs for modern air combat. Simply put carriers are much better options when air power is needed as they are much less politically risky. Even close allies deny basing rights which only carriers can negate this problem.
I personally support the CVF as i think they are vital for any air power needs away from home and modern warfare does require a large air component which will only become more important in future with emerging UAV technology. This nation also found out the hard way of what happens if you dont have proper carriers and AEW so lets not forget those lessons that were learned with blood.
FlubbaLooking at what people have said so far i would like to point out a few things. The F125 is not really suitable to what the RAN wants, they want an excellent ASW platform to hunt small quiet submarines in noisy littoral waters in the northern island chains. They also want an open ocean capable platform. To me this suggests a large ship with a strong self defense AAW fit as it may be operating within range of Air Attack or it may be in opean ocean where a larger ship is better for stability and endurance. It would also be a better idea to have IFEP so that the ship can minimise it’s own noise to aid in the location of subs.
The FREMM ASW variant would seem to fit in quite a few ways but the main stumbling point is that the ship is not big enough mainly as it was designed for the Med. Other stumbling points would be equipment as i doubt the French or Italians would be happy with most of their own equipment being supplanted by US or Australian kit. The FREMM would fit if the size criteria were relaxed but i doubt this will happen.
The non-Aegis F100 design would seem like the ideal soloution it would offer commonality with the Hobart class and would be easier to push for politically, it would also help with the case for more Hobart class destroyers which are badly needed. However the design does need some redesign to become an ASW frigate and to remove the Aegis systems and add ASW equipment. One thing im unsure of is if the Frigate version would really need all the VLS cells as it would not carry a radar capable of using much more than ESSM so money could be saved and space gained by removing most of them. It would really only need 16 cells for 64 ESSM which would provide adequate AAW punch. However are there any plans for the RAN to acquire any sort of land attack missile? if so then more cells would need to be kept for this purpose.
If the options are open for suggestions i would still stick with the idea of looking to see what the RN choose for the C1 requirement as this looks set to be somewhat ideal for the RAN’s needs. The C1 so far looks to be shaping up to be around the 6-7k tons mark and will be a powerfull ASW platform with decent ratings in other areas. The design will also be cheap to both acquire and operate as well as being globally deployable to anywhere in the world. There is one massive downside though we all know the RN is going tit’s up so things may turn out to be hairy, we’ll order 12 and it’ll get cut down to 6 allowing unit cost to rocket. The program will also be a decade late and 150% over budget and come with everthing FFBNW including the engines no doubt and the windows. (A wee rant from me but i have very little doubt that we will end up with around 6 hulls and that they will be crap)
I personally would say the best route for the RAN is go for the F100 derivative as the hull is there with a known cost and it offers great commonality and would give Navantia a clean sweep of the large surface units of the RAN so costs should come down. An extra point a tad bit off topic if all the major units are bought from Navantia and all goes well consider giving them the work to build Auxiliaries or use it as an incentive to do well.
FlubbaExcellent post Mr Worsley. The RR design is an ugly one alright, they have sold though the French have a few for emergency towing and pollution control i think :S. They are handy ships to have when far away from help.
Drugs are a massive problem in the caribbean and it’s nice to see VT coming up with some nice designs that people seem to like. I think they would suit patrolling Australia’s coast line and would be able to deploy easily into the surrounding areas of intrest.
The Caimen 200 LCT would be very close to ideal for the role that it would be intended. I dont think there would be a massive problem sticking a Heli deck over the rear of the vehicle deck, that would allow light to medium helicopters to land and re-fuel.
The point raised about the ANZAC replacement is a good one, a Hobart class with no Aegis might fit the bill but what would be ideal is the planned RN C1 which will be coming along in the next decade. There seems to be a few overlaps between the RAN and RN C3 could fit the patrol vessel requirement and C1 the ANZAC replacement. Also with the RFA supposed to be getting new tankers soon and if the RAN is in the market then thats another overlap. I especially liked the idea that the RNZN might buy a Aegir 10 which would be great for commonality and cost. What am i missing about the Berlin class btw?
FlubbaSwerve fair point anything would need to be built to the North East of Green mountain but the island is still a decent size. There are not that many people to hide it from tbh there are a handfull of BBC people there and the staff at the Airbase already have to have security clearance and are the one’s who would notice extra flights etc. If the planned airport on St. Helena gets built i can see most flights going through there with the larger native population to service it would make more sense. Also the port is due to get improved so it would get most of the traffic leaving ascension island with less traffic.
Im sure the MoD or whoever could come up with some excuse to limit access and 99% of everbody wont give a damn as it’s so remote. The spy satellites generally are on a different orbit and most of the Sats up there are American not many nations would be able to see what we were upto if they wanted to.
I kinda think that there may already be some hush hush stuff on the Island as with all the money being spent during the cold war by the USA i wouldn’t be suprised if there was something hidden there far away from people that would see. Thats a bit conspiracy theoryish of me though 🙂
FlubbaGrim, I’ve always seen Ascension as the ideal place for dodgy goings on, mainly due to it’s isolation but also the fact that it now has a huge runway. I would bet that there is something on the island that most people dont know about. When you think about it the air-traffic passing through is only a few aircraft a month so it would be easy enough to hide something when someone comes visiting.
Personally i wouldn’t mind a better port facility built on the Island for use by the RN and it would allow the island to be used for other things with easier access for bringing in materials.
Now Sinodefence is one hell of a site best there is for info on the Chinese Armed Forces, It’s run by a bunch of volunteers who come from a variety of background mainly from the London area. It’s even used by Government and other large organistaions as far as i’ve heard due to it’s excellent quality and coverage. Mr Beedall does indeed know plenty about the RN and matters concerning it i would imagine he would have quite a few sources within the MoD, RN and industry. I would guess he is also ex-RN, ex-Shipbuilding or at least served some time.
FlubbaAh well, i wonder if they are very collectable. I hope so if not intresting reads for kids if they have an intrest. We did have awesome rocket names namely thanks to our rocket men 😀 men with beards given a chunk of the Isle of Wight and some money and left alone.
The Clansman radio a nice big brick that also could stop bullets alongside other uses. Signals blokes make bloody good PC repair blokes as well but they are best left alone to talk to the technology.
I’ve always fancied building a big secret rocket base on Ascension Island or one of the other isles in the South Atlantic nice and quiet out of the way. Perfect for secret stuff also since it southern it’s not totally covered by tracking radars.
Im sure at some point mankind will unite to go into space and we’ll build some big starships. It’s only a matter of time i hope, first step is back to the moon which i think will be possible. Build a moonbase and ****** off into space once we have health and other issues nailed.
FlubbaOooo! Keep those comics safe they will be worth quite a bit if they are in great condition.
You have a point in a way, we should really spend more money developing exotic technologies that can be dual use. Space technology is an area that frustrates me if you know your history well you should know why. We had the option of Concorde or Space we chose Concorde the French chose both Hmmm! Ooops so much for the idea that people dont want to blast things into space. Now we are reliant on foreign powers for space access so we cannot put something up there with others not knowing what exactly it is or does. The US are still toying with that idea of a suborbital bomber as part of a program to develop global strike components.
When it comes to Sat Comms and GPS we over rely on them far too much as either can be taken out quite easily or jammed by a foreign nation. I know it would be a bigger adversary but there is no political or human cost in war of popping sat’s outta the sky.
Back in the 80’s when running the normal big NATO Op’s some US commander came up with the idea of saying all our space assets have been taken out. The yanks dropped a brick and struggled to use the older kit, our blokes broke out the codebooks and got on with it, rerouting US traffic as well for the Op. It was obvious that the US stopped training their blokes how to use the older kit. One thing i know is it hacked the Royal Signals off to no end 😛
FlubbaI would like a bloody great navy 🙂
Grim i agree with you the Navy is the UK’s best way of defending the UK and our Intrests. Marines are great soliders due to their training and they way they are taught to operate and are much better for expeditionary warfare. Carrier Air power has the major advantages of being able to hit anywhere in the world.
A strong Royal Navy would be my priority and i would give it more control of it’s assets e.g it’s own Air power and i would maybe transfer Nimrods to RN control where they are in most countries.
Kev, Adequate funding for all of them will never happen so i would rather concentrate my money on the most relevant for modern warfare. To be fair as well a navy is a powerfull defensive asset as well very much so in the United Kingdoms case as we are an Island.
FlubbaErm! it still may be cancelled you never know with these muppets. Lots of programs in the past have got far only to be felled.
I do see and i do agree with what you have said he is very partisan but most people are. Is there actually anyone that would make a good defence minister? Basically we need a dynamic trio of Defence Minister, Chief Bean Counter and Prime minister to get stuff pushed through.
Personally i am biased towards the navy as it’s in my opinion the most relevant of the forces to the UK. People would call bull**** which is fine thats just my opinion.
pjhydro, Woot was wondering who was going to raise that point 🙂 5 is the ideal number for a secure deterrence when all things are considered and it allows you to surge another sub out on patrol easily.
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