FlubbaIm still waving my Danish flag for C2:)
I do agree a frigate front end with the back end of a support vessel. Helo’s to me are important for C2 they allow it to be a vessel with reach. With UAV’s coming along in leaps and bounds i see the C2 eventually deploying things like Firescout or the Boeing A160 Humming bird for surveillance and other missions to do with the Littoral enviroment. The T45 as is has already been designed to have an EMF of around 30 RM’s.
I think the T45 hull would cost a bit much for the C2 role though:( If we chose an existing design for C2 *waves Danish flag like a loon* then we wouldnt have design costs to worry about furthermore my choice dosent cost much to build at all compared to other choices it does have it’s downsides however i concede that.
My problem is that the C1, C2 and C3 are all fundamentally diffrent and a similar hull would have disadvantages.
FlubbaGrim it would indeed be nice to Strike a balance. I like the Mistral class as they would be ideal replacments for HMS Ocean, RFA Argus and HMS Ark Royal which has a secondary LPH role.
The mistral class are fine ships they are however built to civvy standards to quite an extent. However the lower part of the ship upto about 2 decks up from the water line have water ballast tanks that provide protection to a degree. Further deisgn modifications could be done to maximise survivabilty. However for 99% of the time the Mistral class would be fine. In higher threat areas the Mistral would be part of a task group providing robust defense the thing that is missing from the Mistral in my eyes is some sort of CIWS in British service i would fit them with CAMM as the radar on them would no doubt be the ubiquitous Artisan radar.
Also the basic concept of LPH operations is to be far offshore to minimise the threat. But yes i see your point but the same could be said of most naval vessels in Europe only the yanks have the money to go full out.
FlubbaA part of my close family is French and i find them a bit odd at times and they find us equally odd at times. We still get on very well though. I also have family in the US and various other places. They find us Brits odd and have some flavoured opinions on the French and i have opinion about them as well. My family is quite a mad bunch and a very big family compared to most modern families. But it makes for some Intresting get togethers as you would imagine. Diffrent mentalities:) Where abouts are you from? I myself am British (Scottish)
Thanks i’ve been looking closely at the Mistral class mainly as i would like some for the RN so i’ve a fair idea about costs and capabilities.
Swerve, I agree that we should disagree with the US more as it would make for a healthier relationship. Im personally not a big fan of blindly following Europe or the US i would rather see a balance between the two. I think the UK would get further and have more influence if we were a strong and independant nation.
FlubbaIm sorry if my comments hurt or upset anyone, they were not intended to.
The Brits insult the French and vice versa we insult the US and Vice versa everyone insults each other. British servicemen even now like to insult the Americans and say derogatory things about them even although the US is very much keeping our men alive in current warzones as the Goverment of this country fails them on many levels.
The US and UK should never have went into Iraq there was no solid reason. I tend to support the theory of Iraq wanting to switch to selling Oil in euros and the US wanting to stop this. That is just a theory but one i suspect has some real grounding.
Back on topic as well. I wouldnt be too suprised if you are right as to what this admiral was alluding to. 6 seems like a good number for the Russians as this would allow them to have at least 3 constantly deployed at any one time and surge more when needed. One could be deployed in the Indian Ocean region, another in the Pacific and one in either the Black sea, Med or Atlantic. This would give the Russians some credible influence comapared to what they have had in years gone by. Furthermore the Mistral class are very affordable for this sort of Mission and due to their commercial design have high availabilty and low maintenance costs.
Personally i see the Mistral class as a huge soft power asset as apposed to hard power. These vessels could be used to enhance Russian image abroad much like the US boost in popularity following the 2004 Tsunami and the massive effort put in by the US armed forces. Especially after the massive drop in opinion after the Invasion of Iraq.
If Russia does build proper carriers again i would Guess there would be no more than four built. My reasons for thinking this are cost and 4 would allow 3 avaliable hulls with another in re-fit. 3 hulls is enough for one in each ocean. But i dont see this happening for a long time the Russian armed forces are a mire currently and would need sorted out.
FlubbaI am not categorizing the 200,000 french men that died as cheese eating surrender monkeys i am mearely pointing out the fact that the french are called this in Jest.
Im saying if they surrendered, threw in the towel the allies would not have been pleased and would have been extremely damaging for morale as they suffered a great deal liberating europe and they never surrendered. There are many hundreds of thousands of unknown soliders that lie amongst the soils of western europe not just french many many more are English, American, Australian, Canadian the list goes on.
The way you take comments and they way they are meant to be taken is up to you. If you have read the comments following mine you would have a clearer view. I have a deep respect for people who due their duty as i have close family that have served, are serving and some will unfortunately be serving forever. Dont presume to know me.
FlubbaThe Mistral class are around the 300mln euro mark maybe slightly above it. Still exceptionally good value for money. The first 2 were bought together and including R&D costs the project came in at 680 mln euros IIRC.
Yes, Wilhelm. The battle of Verdun during WW1 congratulations nor the French or the Germans won. Yes admittedly the French did not surrender but they couldnt the allies would have looked upon the French in digust had they done so. Anyhow im not going to get into a political / Historical tiff. Where do you hail from??
X07 thanks for that link tis appreciated. I would also like to refer people to the Ares blog on Aviation week they have posted about the news.
FlubbaJonesy you are right about TLAM the RN will never really be able to use them en masse. Thats best left to the USN, anything big enough to warrant our need to put TLAM’s on target en masse will attract the USN.
Where TLAM is useful to the RN is on SSN’s as you said the threat of them is enough to make people think and unlike a big grey boat you have little idea where the hell an SSN is.
I would like to see TLAM’s on surface combatants as they would be useful for coercion as well, not as much as an SSN of course. Futhermore the frigates will be more widespread so would be able to hit pop-up targets in time if there is not an SSN nearby and with the sub force as small as it is that might be handy.
You are clearly correct on T45’s and C1’s they wont be doing things like the Falklands patrol etc that is one of the reasons for C2.
32 TLAM’s would be the ideal number i would say but i doubt that it will happen, would be nice. I know you arent suggesting that your just making your point.
I agree in part with your last point i would like the Khareefish C3 design and a serious C1 derived from T45 the point that i differ on is C2 but i think even the MoD and RN wont know exactly what they want.
Thanks for reading, Flubba
FlubbaAhhh! Thanks soyuz nice find. I shall now go and do some reading. Where abouts are you from?
Pioneer, French bash away i call them cheese eating surrender monkeys and so do people i know. Strange though part of my family is French 🙂
I was thinking that they might be wondering what people would think with the current Goverment. You do have a point though.
FlubbaReally thats news to me?? Can you back that up. Links to articles or news reports etc.
Could you also give details are they Civvy comms or mil standard.
FlubbaYeah i wouldnt be so suprised if the French were thinking about what people would say it might not go down with some people. However you are right it would be a good idea to make some money from the Russians it would also allow them to get a really good look at the state of Russian ship yards.
Yeah i was sure Russians comms etc would be fitted. What about other things like Nav systems, propulsion, the basic infrastructure of the ships. Thats the stuff that im thinking about.
I would like to see the UK not being such a slave to the US but i also have the same opinion of the UK and EU but thats politics and thats an especially rough patch.
FlubbaYeah i thought it’s very weird that the French have made no comment, I agree under the current goverment the French have been more freindly with the US and now they want to sell Russia LHD’s just dosent fit much. I wonder what the US Goverment think. It’s not much of a threat at all.
Yeah as i’ve said i would start with simple ships like Auxiliaries if i was the Boss. I see them wanting most of all is the processes that are used to build ships in the modern fashion and the ships are a bonus.
The Mistral class are a Hybrid the Hull was made in 2 parts one made by Chantiers de l’Atlantique and the other in Poland. The polish bit was the Military side the hangar etc and dock area very simple and not complex but built to modern standards. The front half was built like a commercial vessel basically an economy cruise ship. Then the 2 ends were put in a dry dock and welded together. Voila a new LHD. Maybe the first hull being build in Poland and France. Then the second I could maybe see the French building the front and the Ruskies building the back.
I see them being very important to the Russian Navy as well it would allow them to deploy Amphib groups which would be handy for Soft Power and Hard alike.
Sorry i took so long to reply Grim i subscribed to this thread and got no-email notices even although i told it to send me them. 🙁
FlubbaSorry to double post but i thought i would post up some links for those people who are intrested.
Information Dissemination: (http://www.informationdissemination.net/2009/08/thoughts-on-russian-mistral.html) and (http://www.informationdissemination.net/2009/08/russia-buys-mistral.html)
Defense tech: (http://www.defensetech.org/archives/005000.html)
FlubbaYeah i know they will remove the sensitive parts but Mistral heavily uses commercial techniques hence why they are so cheap. So i dont think it will give too much away.
Yeah i totallly agree with you the fact that they would conisder buying it shows that they cant even afford to design it themselves. It will be intresting to see how this pans out.
FlubbaThanks for posting.
This has been floating around the net for a while now, so not really news. But it still is intresting to say the least my opinion is that the Russians dont have the cash atm to buy one of the Mistral class. Furthermore if they wanted to build one they would need lots and i mean lots of support from the French, Russia’s shipyards are in a hell of a state. If you dont belive me just look around and see.
The logical thing for the Ruskies to do is re-build their shipyards by building some nice simple Auxiliaries and then move onto more complex designs such as Frigates, destroyers and things like the Mistral class etc. But then they arent exactly logical they would more or less do this for the pride if there is much.
One thing that intrigues me is would Russian choppers be cleared to operate off such a ship they seem bigger and would require a re-design of some parts of the ship. Would the ship be Russianised?? or would this be a shift by the Russkies to westernise??
FlubbaAs far as i am aware the PAAMS cost is inclusive of the development costs of the system as well as the Radars and VLS hence why it’s so expensive. Development has been paid so that would lower the costs if you were to re-use PAAMS, i know you arent suggesting this.
The Combat Managment System roughly £110 mn IIRC. That is seprate from PAAMS costs. This is what does all the work and is the important part as such. The VLS launchers dont cost much money comapred to the other things they are essentially a big metal box with datalinks to talk to the missiles. Yes they do cost something but not megabucks.
Some re-design of the T45 hull will be needed but over a run of at least 8 hulls minimum these costs should not be substantial and if more hulls are built which i hope there will be costs would be lower.
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