FlubbaI had never actually thought of Canada as a possible Eurofighter customer as they are pretty much sold on getting the F-35A which would be a better idea as when deployed they could work alongside the USAF. I don’t see why Canada would want the Eurofighter unless the Russians start causing problems and they need a twin-engine dogfighter, the F-35 will be suitable for what they need it to do. (As Grim said no fan-boy commenting here please) Any competition would not be an open one, it would be much like the other partner nations a simple “Nope we still want the F-35” ordeal and would serve no purpose.
FlubbaThey do indeed have other concerns:)
FlubbaHmmm! Does Russia want to keep the ex-Gorshkov I would say maybe as we all know they have ambitions to re-build a naval force and a carrier would no doubt be the centre piece of a new fleet. Personally I’ve always thought the renovation and remodelling of the Gorshkov was very ambitious to say the least as she was left tied up with little maintenance for many years and is a good age. Furthermore the scale of the changes needed to the hull is far from trivial it is akin to a full rebuild along one side of the hull and a complete gutting of all the spaces as well as an update and replacement of many of the fittings. Add to this the state of Russian Shipyards and Shipbuilding in general and it makes for a bad mix time and money could have been saved doing the work elsewhere, although I don’t know where.
An example we can have a look at is the Chinese efforts to bring the Varyag back to life and they have vast resources to call upon to carry out the task and have had the hull for longer. Varyag mainly needed refurbished and systems installed as the hull was close to completion whereas Gorshkov needed/needs massive remodelling work to be the carrier India wants.
FlubbaThey were indeed small compared to past protests over various issues but they still got press attention which matters IMHO. Thankfully the USN and Japanese Government managed to minimise the fallout and reassure people it was safe etc.
I agree with your post 8, the US has a separate reactor design for its carriers.
FlubbaScooter said France and yes I think the PA2 should be nuclear powered as it would be the wiser option considering France lacks its own oil supplies and is the world leader in Nuclear power. There are problems but they are worth trying to solve and lessons should have been learned from CdG so it hopefully should not happen again. The CVF class ideally should have been nuclear powered but they also ideally would have been CATOBAR carriers with proper air groups and all sorts of other things should be different.
Obligatory, Kitty Hawk has already been replaced at Yokosuka by the USS George Washington one of the Nimitz class and there were protests over her stationing there.
EDIT: Scooter faster on the keyboard than me there:)
FlubbaWell I think Brazil should get out of the carrier game if I’m honest as there are better ways to spend the money. If CATOBAR carriers are out of their league then so should any other type of carrier as the costs between them are minimal.
Why do I not think it can operate from a Ski Jump? simply because it never has and I don’t know enough about the aircraft design and aerodynamics etc to say that it could. It could maybe get into the air but with what loads in what conditions etc there is too much unknown in my opinion. One thing I’m thinking about is the Eurofighter can get into the Air in 300 metres from brakes off at maximum power with a light weapons load. The Eurofighter has a higher thrust to weight ratio AFAIK so I don’t think a Rafale could get into the air with anything approaching a decent load in the short distance of the deck even when including a Ski Jump.
FlubbaI’m going to go out on a limb here and fully expect it to get chopped off. Let’s say there is money available for a new carrier at some point between 2010 and 2020 and it will be spent on a carrier as everything else has somehow been taken care of. Also let’s assume the Rafale has won the competition and the Brazilians decided they would like some navalised Rafales as part of the order so we are now looking for a carrier that can use the Rafale M as it is now. In my opinion that seems to be the logical path and the rafale has a good chance of winning as we all might know.
I would suggest a copy of whatever the French decide to build for PA2 which in some ways they have to build at some point. If the PA2 turns out to be nuclear powered then there might be an issue there but if it is conventionally powered I see no reason why Brazil would not be interested if it was looking for a carrier.
FlubbaI thought it was a tad bit obvious where the writer had got the figures from, but yeah he/she was just being lazy and lacking any real knowledge on the subject.
FlubbaFor that matter maybe Brazil should strike a deal with Argentine to get two carriers built which would give attractive cost savings for the new build.
I know this is going back to the last page but i just wanted to say that i doubt it will ever happen Argentina has much better things to spend money on.
I still think this whole Question hinges on what fighter wins the current competition the chances are it will be the Rafale as it looks to have the upper hand. If the Rafale wins the Air Force competition then logically the navy should use the aircraft as a carrier borne fighter, the reasons are pretty obvious. I think the Question would then be what is the cheapest and most effective way to get the Rafale to sea on a new ship. Use an existing design or a design based closely on an existing design or spend the money having a brand new design created for you, the former would seem the better way but there are problems with that idea. The Indian Project 71 class carrier could be modified to have catapults* but at what cost and where would the hull be built and what else would need to be changed for it to be suited to Brazilian service.
Being realistic Brazil getting a new carrier is pretty remote there are better things to spend the money on as shown in that article Swerve found there are places money needs to be spend within the navy and even they are not being funded. There are also other areas within the defence budget apart from the navy that could use this money and any suggestion to replace the carrier should be kicked further down the line. I also do not see the need for a Carrier at all in South America especially for Brazil which is a vast nation that borders almost all the other South American nations. If they wanted to step up on the global stage there are much better ways of doing so than buying a carrier it may be prestigious but of little real use, as I have said an LPD is all they need even much further down the line.
*The Rafale could be launched from a Ski Jump maybe but it has not been tested, certified or designed to do so. Unless someone can prove to me that it can operate from a Ski Jump without problem then fine, if not I will maintain it needs a catapult.
FlubbaHarry I and I suspect others like the mistral as it is a proven vessel that is cheap to acquire and operate it also has excellent availability and thanks to its method of construction would be easy to share the work. Furthermore it covers all the bases as it has a decent hospital, aviation facilities, command facilities and it also has a well dock capable of handling LCAC’s. The hospital can also be expanded into the hangar to provide for more casualties ideal for humanitarian missions and it provides good surgical facilities. The other designs might well be better designs but they are still on paper and nobody wants to take the risk of getting the thing built when there is a proven design that can be bought off the shelf. Its construction method also allows it to be modified to the users need such as deleting the week dock in exchange for other things. Basically I’m a fan as it’s a proven all rounder than can be bought without busting the bank.
The Article Swerve linked to does point to a clear path to follow but is simply constrained by money which always crops up in the end. Many of the projects that are mentioned could easily be met by French equipment and it seems logical to buy more French/European equipment with the ToT that we are willing to add. The Frigates point to FREMM and the AOR points to Aegir as it’s a BMT design and BMT are a design house not a shipyard so it should be pretty simple or the French will no doubt need to replace their own AOR so there is another crossover.
FlubbaAck! Well I’m wrong but what evidence is there I’m not saying it’s not possible but I don’t really positively know that it is. The Mig-29K was designed to be launched off a ramp whereas the Rafale and F/A-18 are designed to be catapult launched it maybe is possible to launch them off a ramp but has it been done?
What do other have to say?
FlubbaYes i am, the Rafale is catapult launched and the project 71’s lack catapults so the project 71’s would need to be fitted with catapults if they were to use the project 71’s as a future carrier.
FlubbaErm! what aircraft would it use when equipped with a Ski Jump? buying a whole new type would be more expensive than using a single type such as Rafale which has a pretty solid chance of winning the fighter comp. I doubt the rafale could be launched from a ramp but i’ve no idea im open to evidence from others.
FlubbaMark maybe I did exaggerate things a little but dispersal would only work for the short term to protect aircraft but they would not be suitable for any sort of high usage and would need to somehow get munitions and large amounts of fuel. The V-bombers were meant to sit there and essentially once they left were not coming back as there would be nothing left to come back to. Maybe the future is dual-use with smaller civilian regional airports like in many other countries as this should help lower costs as the base infrastructure would be maintained by the civilian airport side of things.
Charlie fair point we really need to wait and see what happens in regards to replacing the Tucano’s something like the PC-21 would be ideal but it would all hinge on work share at some point along the line. Anything to drive down costs would no doubt be followed and using a single type to do a larger chunk of the training should help.
FlubbaAhh! Nice find Swerve i’ll give it a read, just at a glance seems like a decent roadmap.
Thanks again:)
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