MisterQ and StevoJH, You cannot stimulate shipbuilding in that way by building commercial ships as EU competition rules prohibit it. Building Naval Vessels is fine as long as they are strictly naval and i think we all know that it would never happen as there is not enough common sense left in the UK voters and the people they vote for to realise that we are an island nation. Hell i would love to stimulate shipbuilding (I live by the Clyde) by rebuilding the Royal Navy into something that would resemble it’s former self but the people would just not be behind it.

Commercial shipbuilding as far as i know has to be done in a fair manner e.g. all EU shipyards can bid on work and direct subsidies would not be allowed and lets face it UK shipyards are pretty expensive. Even ignoring this what would the ship’s be for? are you planning on setting up some sort of semi-state owned shipping line and providing them with massive subsidies to buy UK built ships. Or do you plan simply to offer existing companies money to order UK built ships? The money poured into the idea would need to be pretty big as South Korean shipyards beat us on price and annihilate us on efficiency and sticking to contract terms.

In my view the most realistic thing is to build the UK back to being a Tier 1 naval power while helping a heavy industry. Even if we maintained the RN at 1980’s strength (60 odd escorts) that would still be a healthy workload for exisiting yards and should keep them occupied, it may even need an expansion of capacity. That in my view is pretty realistic from a financial point of view and would have other plusses, such as having a proper naval force, employing thousands of skilled people and supporting the wider economy such as steel mills etc. Also i’m a Eurosceptic so i would rather we were not fully part of the EU and if we were not we could have much more freedom, we could subsidise industries if we wanted.

incidentally, what would people expect the tornadoes to be replaced by, F-35 or some strike variant of the EF ? one type each for the RAF and RN would probably make more economic sense.

The Tornado GR4’s could be replaced with vanilla Eurofighters as they have been cleared to carry just about every weapon that a GR4 can carry so could do the job just as well if not better. If i were the nut making the decision i would replace the Tornado’s with a mix of Eurofighter and UCAV’s that should be coming along the pipeline in the next 10 years. The Royal Navy is best suited to stick with the F-35 ideally the C version in my opinion, although this would require the carriers to be modified and training to increase etc.

The idea of using the F-35 to replace the Tornado is a solid well formed idea as the F-35 is designed with some major features that favour and improve it’s utility in the ground attack role. Examples include the X-band stealth reduction and EOTS which the Eurofighter lacks, however i dont think these are important enough to warrant having a seperate support network for a different aircraft. However these will be made up for with the future introduction of UCAV’s so Eurofighters would only be alone in the strike role for a short time in RAF service.

So basically yes a single fast jet type for each service would be my option on a tight budget. The RN operating F-35B off of large carriers and on land in support of marines. The RAF operating Eurofighter in all roles but to be joined by a UCAV at a later date.

EDIT: Obi Wan, from what i know if the RAF got all of it’s 232 airframes then quite a few of them would sit in some nice big shed somewhere to save money but would be rotated to maintain hours. Maybe someone who knows more about this could enlighten me? So when GR4 are getting binned the Eurofighters could be taken from storage and placed into service alongside some nice not so shiny UCAV’s.

Sorry i aint commented back on this thread been using a different computer for the last few days. My view is the LCS design has been ruined so much by the need for speed that it has very little value. The propulsion system takes up far too much of the hull space and dictates a hull design unsuited for the role furthermore this all costs much more money than what is ideal. Hopefully some people on here read Information Dissemination a blog that has covered the LCS in detail covering both the good and the bad.

Sometimes you have to get into the weeds to deal with the threats.

How does a 3,000 ton warship get into the weeds exactly? It is not a small ship and getting closer to shore is not really relevant. The end effectors are still going to be RHIB’s and helicopters, littoral warfare is mostly about people rather than systems, you have to get people into the crowded littorals to do VBSS roles. The VBSS roles are always done by RHIB’s and helo’s regardless, it dosen’t matter if you are a 3000ton LCS or a 100,000 ton Nimitz class.

As an additional point, i think modern warships do not need speed anymore as helicopters and other effectors can cover for it’s motherships lack of speed. What is needed is endurance, sensors and space.

Stan i almost choked on my Pizza and laid an egg when i read the thread title thankfully it aint that bad. If they did cancel one of the carriers my MSP and MP would be hearing from me. Hopefully the powers at be are convinced the RN has taken it’s share of the pain and leaves them alone, though with the level of seablindness in the UK as a whole this looks unlikely.

One Question that is raised in my mind is should defence really be cut, most of the big ticket things are needed for one reason or another. Although i concede they are very poorly defined and managed by the MoD, Industry and meddled with by politicians wanting to safeguard votes and thinking they know best. I think the defence establishment needs better management and less political interference rather than cutting it’s tiny budget in a time when we are at war.

In regards to the F-35 comments, i would prefer that all of them were under FAA control and the RAF used a single fast jet type. I see very little problem with the Typhoon being the only RAF fast jet as it can carry and deploy almost all the GR4 weapons therefore do it’s mission. In reality UCAV’s should come into play in a few years time even if they are off the shelf buys from the USA and these should be able to do the bulk of strike work. So nope no quibbles from me about having an all Typhoon RAF fast jet force.

Nice it supposedly can hit 45 knots, i bet it’ll drain it’s tanks in those 4 hours and cause stress to the propulsion system. In my humble opinion the speed requirement for the LCS is a mistake and utterly ruins the original concept.

Thanks for the post though it’s an intresting read. Random question a member since 2006 and only 56 posts??

Well the smaller Corvette’s would be ideal in the littoral and closer to home in the med while the FREMM class frigates could be used to take part in things like TF150 off the Somali Coast or other operations to build relations.

Algeria is buying loads of kit so yup it is possible that they could buy both. They also supposedly switched the FREMM order to italy no doubt the reason is so that they can buy it as part of a package with AW helicopters, im sure they were looking at the Merlin and the Italian FREMM’s can deploy them. Just my thoughts.

I thought Kuwait bought them? i can’t remember where i heard that.

Talking about Mistral class in particular, as in we would have a common platform used by the 2 largest naval powers in Europe. Yes, when you include everything else there are quite a few platforms that can be used.

It would be intresting to see Germany acquire something like the Mistral class as it would offer a massive boost to aid operations and humanitarian assistance. I think the world has grown up to realise that German’s are nice people so there should not be too much trouble. Another nation i would keep an eye on is Turkey, with the second largest armed forces in Europe and a very well equipped one at that i can see something like an LPH on the horizon. IMHO Turkey would be a very important EU member if it can join the club.