dark light

LowObservable

Forum Replies Created

Viewing 15 posts - 211 through 225 (of 954 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (3) #2243675
    LowObservable
    Participant

    Sweet eff-all has been heard about a 6 x internal AMRAAM capability since 2011 at latest; the Cathers reference was the last in any formal brief (IIRC) and was in late 2007. The disappearance of any such claim preceded the marketing of the Cuda concept. This makes it quite probable that the notion of carrying two AMRAAMs in each outboard bay (not part of the original spec) proved impractical.

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (3) #2243749
    LowObservable
    Participant

    Surely, if we’re using car analogies, we should think of something that was designed to meet a wide variety of needs while being relatively affordable.

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]234182[/ATTACH]

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (3) #2243807
    LowObservable
    Participant

    Hops – Your point does call for a clarification.

    If you’ve built facilities and accumulated an overhead geared to a certain rate, and you don’t achieve it, your costs are through the roof (which is one reason why F-35s remain so expensive in current years). So yes, achieving high rate is critical for the F-35 to get within spitting distance of other fighters’ costs.

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (3) #2243819
    LowObservable
    Participant

    Here’s the thing, VN.

    All airplane production rates are, by the standards of manufacturing economics, low. The world’s highest-rate aircraft production lines are approximately an order of magnitude lower-rate than Lamborghini or Rolls.

    F-35s, F-18s, Rafales and Gripens alike are another order of magnitude below that. If and when the F-35 gets to its highest contemplated rate* it will still be one-third of the fastest-moving aircraft lines.

    Consequently, all fighter production lines work the same way. The jets are hand-assembled. Some of the pieces arriving at the final assembly line may come from a dedicated facility or the prime’s own metal shop, but many of them come from a supply chain that feeds all the fighter lines. The supplier’s price can be beaten down somewhat with negotiating power, if you can show solid future orders, but there’s only so much that can be done to costs.

    Result: high production rates alone are not the end of the economic argument. It’s actually more important to keep your processes (supply and assembly) lean, and keep your overhead down.

    * which it won’t

    Also. Hops – An F-8 had the same basic engine (small thrust increase) as an F-100 or F4D and fell between the two in empty weight, the primary difference being aerodynamics. Which resulted in an “incremental” speed difference of 50-60 per cent. I do understand why F-35 fans don’t like to think about supersonic aerodynamics, because it would depress them severely if they did.

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (3) #2243864
    LowObservable
    Participant

    After 150 miles it gets vewwy vewwy quiet…

    Actually supercruise is useful for all air defense missions, even QRA policing. If your criterion is to be formating on a subsonic bogey X minutes from the target you are protecting, and your sensors and C2 can declare a problem bogey at Y minutes out, the supercruise can cover more distance in Y minus X minutes. Hence each QRA location can cover more area and you may not need as many of them.

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (3) #2243973
    LowObservable
    Participant

    FBW – See my comment further up. To compare a delta-canard with an F-16 or F-18 in the supersonic regime is like comparing a Sabre and an Me262. “Explain the difference”? Here goes.

    Rafale has higher wing sweep and lower T/C ratio.
    Without the mid-fuselage short-chord wing, the Rafale has better area-ruling (in the sense of CS area increasing smoothly from front to rear).
    The external tanks are designed for supersonic speed, with sharp conical noses and a more tapered front section. Like a miniature B-58 tank.
    From an area-ruling standpoint, most of the tank volume is longitudinally separated from most of the wing mass and the weapons (see photo)
    With the aft-located wing and the canard, Rafale suffers much less from increasing trim drag as the CP moves aft at supersonic speeds.
    It is entirely possible and quite likely that the M88, being a later design than the F100/110/404, maintains a higher percentage of dry thrust to higher speeds.

    As for the fansite source, the document submitted to the show organizers is interesting. You don’t tell performance porkies to your own aviation community. And if you can do 1.4 supercruise with one tank I find it credible that you can do 1.5 with three. A little bit faster, but otherwise using 10000 lb more thrust to propel two gas tanks.

    Rapellons-nous, as the Froggies say, that the Rafale is a later design than the F-16/18 and for Dassault was a second-generation FBW aircraft. And like the Typhoon, there was an unwritten requirement to deliver capabilities that the in-service Teens did not.
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]234177[/ATTACH]

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (3) #2244316
    LowObservable
    Participant

    Msphere…. Good point.

    Hey, M31, how about learning to spell or use punctuation and capitals before you slag off someone’s journalism? Also, you are wrong in stating that the EOTS can be easily upgraded to match current pods. The issue is stealth and multi-spectral EO.

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (3) #2244731
    LowObservable
    Participant

    We don’t have an equivalent chart for the Rafale, but the same basic principals apply.

    Why? The Rafale is very different from the Super H, with greater wing sweep, lower T/C ratio, better area ruling (without a short-chord wing sticking out of its midriff region) and more thrust compared with empty weight. The supersonic tanks are (shocker) designed for supersonic speed, unlike standard US tanks, and most of their bulk is in front of at least 75 per cent of the wing (area ruling).

    History: the F-16 and F-18 deliberately sacrificed supersonic performance for transonic agility. An unstable delta-canard, by contrast, is designed to combine high agility with the classic delta virtues of low supersonic drag and structural efficiency. One of the basically silly aspects of the “Gen4” definition is that comparing a delta-canard to a 16 or 18 is like comparing a Sabre to an Me262.

    I will agree that the F-35 will reach Mach 1.6 with lots of internal fuel capacity. How much of that capacity will be actually filled with fuel is another question, given its known deficiency in acceleration.

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (3) #2244986
    LowObservable
    Participant

    I do not have access to classified performance information. But it is definitely generally the case that envelope limits are set by limits other than simple thrust and drag. Mostly because the max achievable numbers with minimal fuel and no armament are of very little tactical use, and because Q equals heat and heat is destructive. Also because extreme envelope testing is expensive.

    Consequently, it makes no sense to assume that a Rafale can’t reach its max speed with any external load. Who knows, maybe an F-35 can do that too.

    MiG – sputter all you want but just because something has been tested does not mean it has been cleared for service.

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (3) #2245139
    LowObservable
    Participant

    Ironic that the Hopster posts one comment bragging about the F-35 becoming “operational” next year and then another about its air-policing capabilities – when of course next year’s operational jet, and the AF’s 3I that follows it, have no such capability. Not only do they have neither a gun nor a SRAAM but they are limited to 40 kft altitude, which many modern civil aircraft can exceed easily.

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (3) #2246031
    LowObservable
    Participant

    Nothing like making such predictions on an internet forum, where they will be forgotten completely if they are wrong.

    Actually…. Expect a nice fight in Belgium, at least three ways. Poland’s pre-Ukraine plan was to keep the old Russian stuff duct-taped together until (in theory) they could go F-35. Will they now? Spain… You’re out of date, Harriers will remain until 2030. India – Rafale deal has “reportedly been in trouble” for a long time, and F-35 (for now) is a complete non-starter due to indigenization policy.

    Speaking of deals in trouble, there’s a fighter out there which claims 800 partner orders, of which 28 have money down after 13 years…

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (3) #2246042
    LowObservable
    Participant

    “Looks like momentum continues to build”

    You’re confusing “momentum” with “propelled by $80 billion to date”. And I’m sure “production is not behind schedule” is good news in JSF land, but it’s routine everywhere else.

    in reply to: Saab Gripen & Gripen NG thread #3 #2246593
    LowObservable
    Participant

    Since we are on a side trip down memory lane, some holiday reading:

    http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1975/1975%20-%200712.html

    in reply to: Do we need STOVL when STOL might do? #2246600
    LowObservable
    Participant

    F-15SMTD was a dead-end for a reason: the thrust reversers were incredibly heavy. The Swedes’ 800-meter, narrow runway is a pretty good compromise as long as you also have an aircraft that is designed for effective dispersal (not an insanely complex Chitty Chitty Bang Bang with three different major power systems).

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (3) #2247606
    LowObservable
    Participant

    Er, no, RC. But I would not say that $100m is an outrageous estimate, for a medium-size deal for a new customer with no previous experience of a modern multi-role jet. Just don’t try comparing it to any US budget figure. And quite obviously

    Contractor and logistical support associated with the acquisition of 28 (twenty eight) single-seat multi-role fighter aircraft and eight (8) multi-role fighter aircraft dual seat

    can include the transfer of technology and production work, since that process is part of that acquisition.

Viewing 15 posts - 211 through 225 (of 954 total)